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[claragold]

  I remember that when I first got here my Japanese colleagues were fiercely opposed to any type of syllabus.  This was intruding into their professional space.  We had (and to some degree still have) people teaching the same exact content in two courses -- and teaching totally different content in two subsequent semesters.  Even asking what book was being used was consider nosey" behavior.  The only way to know what books were being assigned was to look at what the students brought to class.

I believe the Japanese system was originally modeled on the German system.  But as with many aspects of the culture, the Japanese have taken something foreign and made it uniquely their own. 

It sounds more like the French! In a small class grad course, I remember asking a French professor for the bibliography of his course, since I had been obliged to miss his first classes, and he disdainfully replied there was no bibliography (obviously! what was I thinking?!). I was to listen to him lecture in class (which, in France,  means a non-stop 3-hour stream-of-consciousness French ideological  maelstrom, similar to what goes on in the brain of a escargot) and note down any names that he deigned to mention (which I was never familiar with, and could only guess at the spelling). Evidently, said professor said this with the typical French prof sneering  little smile, knowing that he was giving me a hard time completely needlessly, but which affirmed his enshrined, holier-than-thou status. As for the lectures he had already given, he obviously had no notes or hand-outs, I was to ask the other students if anyone would let me look at their notes. And which we must note, said students aren't all that keen on doing...

It's.so.intelligent.in.every.way :-)

[ideagirl]

It sounds more like the French! In a small class grad course, I remember asking a French professor for the bibliography of his course, since I had been obliged to miss his first classes, and he disdainfully replied there was no bibliography (obviously! what was I thinking?!). I was to listen to him lecture in class (which, in France,  means a non-stop 3-hour stream-of-consciousness French ideological  maelstrom, similar to what goes on in the brain of a escargot) and note down any names that he deigned to mention (which I was never familiar with, and could only guess at the spelling).

I've studied at two different French universities. No problem getting bibliographies (I still remember that "Clan of the Cave Bear" [in French] was on the bibliography of the prehistoric art class I took with the magnificent Jean Clottes). But I totally hear you about the lecturing. It is impossible to do well in a French university without working with other students; the teaching method forces students to turn to each other ("what was that book he mentioned/how do you spell the name of that author/can I copy your notes for the class I missed/etc."). Students have to figure things out for themselves, without professorial hand-holding--what a concept!!
:-)

[claragold]

I've studied at two different French universities. No problem getting bibliographies (I still remember that "Clan of the Cave Bear" [in French] was on the bibliography of the prehistoric art class I took with the magnificent Jean Clottes). But I totally hear you about the lecturing. It is impossible to do well in a French university without working with other students; the teaching method forces students to turn to each other ("what was that book he mentioned/how do you spell the name of that author/can I copy your notes for the class I missed/etc."). Students have to figure things out for themselves, without professorial hand-holding--what a concept!!
:-)

That's an interesting take, like for my thesis, I won't provide the bibliography and, if asked, I'll just reply, "hey, I'm not here to hold your hand, figure it out by yourselves!" what a concept, huh?

Lazy French shmuck of a prof doesn't even deign to write down a bibliography and then gets a sock-puppet on the web...

As for: "what was that book he mentioned/how do you spell the name of that author,"  the three bewildered French students next to you will sheepishly reply, "we didn't understand it either..."  It's just so fantastic!

Actually, I have this weird professional concept that on the first day of class, instructor walks into class prepared, with a syllabus and bibliography correctly elaborated and ready to hand out. And although, depending on the level of the class, a lecture-only course for the entire semester is of value, if that is repeated again and again for just about the entire program, with students having very little opportunity to engage and discuss, even with all the problems that traditional American discussion sessions have, it is still much more edifying than the moronic "sit there and listen to the voice of authority" that is the cornerstone of the French education system. And if profs get seriously out of line, they get sued. We could call it the "if you don't figure it out by yourself that you need to be professional, you're outta here" concept.

[birds_man]

Ahhh the good old french system....
I did my undergrads there and somewhat survived. One good thing though is when I moved to North America I was so "trained" at working like a mad dog to keep my head above water than no other student in my classes (in Canada) could match my grades. I went from survival mode to top dog. It is true that there are some bad students in France, however, from my past experience, I think they tend to be less lazy than US students (I have a tenure-track position in the US so I know a bit about both systems).
I have been out of touch with the french system for the past little while. I thought our pro-US president (Sarkozy) was trying to make the system more like the US (and rightfully so) and give University presidents more autonomy about their budgets and about whom they decide to hire. How is that going?

[frenchdoctor]

This said, a more American system is completely unthinkable.

- French universities are funded by the state at nearly 100%. The tuition fees count for nearly nothing. At the Sorbonne, for example, the tuitions don't cover the budget of the admission service. Almost everything, any given year, comes directly from taxpayers' money. In other words, universities don't have any endowment. They possess nothing of their own, not even the buildings. They're under the complete control of the State.

And you can't create an endowment out of nothing in one single year. It takes decades, if not centuries (provided that people are willing to give some money for knowledge. The French are so accustomed to well-fare state that they won't freely give a penny. Taxes are an important part of our culture ; free enterprise is not).


- The same with tuitions. Tuitions today are very low in France, and even free for the poorest students. You can say it's a good thing, but as the saying goes : "you get what you paid for".

Low tuitions also mean the banks, for example, don't offer loans to students. The economic system isn't prepared for higher tuitions. Here again, you'd need to change the whole mentality. I don't even think it's possible : the students and their parents will put university administrators under the guillotine rather than paying higher fees.

I must add that students at some prestigious "grandes écoles" (ENS, Polytechnique, Chartes, ENA) don't pay tuitions but are paid by the State. So you'd need to reverse the system : pay instead of getting paid. It's not that easy.


- I won't enter long bureaucratic explanations, but french universities have almost no freedom at all. The money comes from the State. The admission standards are imposed by the State (= no standard at all). The graduation standards are imposed by the State (= idem). Diplomas are defined by State laws. Cursus structures, schedules, and everything else are set by the State (an university can't even say "we'll put french 201 after french 101", the State overules that kind of decisions). Recruitment depends on the State (universities merely suggest). Faculty status and careers are managed by the State.

What we call "university" is actually a soul-less, empty, bureaucratic frame. There is no community spirit at all.


- The State has monopoly of university and diplomas. Private universities are forbidden by the law. There are some private colleges and business schools, but they don't have the right to call themselves "universities", and don't have the right to stamp university diplomas.

Here again, it's a matter of history and culture. Private research universities never existed in France. Nobody would know how to found one, or to run one. Given the economic situation, it would be completely impossible to find the money anyway.

You could probably set up some sort of private "Wal-Mart U", selling crappy diplomas, like your "diploma mills", but an Ivy-league style private R1, no way, never. Mauritania will send people into space before France will get its own Harvard or Cambridge.     

[birds_man]

I agree frenchdoctor. I remember when then minister of the education Claude Alegre tried to "degresser le mamouth" (i.e. modernize the system) with some pretty good ideas and he got fired after students took over the streets everywhere in France. You cannot increase fees, impossoble, which means french faculty members get peanuts as a paycheck (1850 Euros last time I checks as a starting salary). After 10+ years of grad school, I don't think so. In the US I make over 3 times more as a junior faculty member...
Things have to change but they won't, it is very sad because I love the old country!
Other thing they need to work on is more academic freedom over what you can put in your syllabi (that is the day the will decide to actually make syllabi!).

[frenchdoctor]

I did oppose Allègre too. The guy was also an obscurantist and enemy of the humanities. If "dégraisser le mammouth" is synonymous with "fire all humanists", I'm not in the same team. A research university must cover all fields, not only business and industrial R&D. History, philosophy, literature, arts... will never be moneymakers. And yet, they are essential.

Here again, there is a difference of culture. If I'm not mistaken, when Leyland Stanford founded his university, he wanted to see all students follow a part of their cursus in the humanities. What you call "liberal arts college" also try to teach humanities the best they can. I know the situation of the humanities is very difficult everywhere, but you just have to compare the shape of humanities departments in France and in America to see that the "country without culture" is not the one most people think (I won't post again the pictures of the humanities department at Strasbourg, check above). In France, the humanities are used as a dump, with the idea that only sciences and business matter.

The odd thing, which I can't explain, is that in France the worst enemies of the humanities are ... the left-wing politicians. Don't forget Allègre is a socialist. They hate humanities because they still consider that reading books is a decadent, bourgeois pastime. On the other hand, of course, (marxist) social sciences bring the Ultimate Knowledge, they are the End of Academic History.

As you see, politics are always complicated in France. As a humanist, I'm under attack from both sides. The right-wing thinks I'm a good-for-nothing, unproductive parasite. The left-wing, and Allègre with it, thinks I'm a lazy, aristocratic elitist who despises the People.

In the book already quoted ("universités : la grande illusion"), the authors state that France actually doesn't have any university. We call "universités" places that no other country would dare to give that name to. Due to historical reasons (*) we don't really know what an university is, or should be. Allègre, as a member of the left wing, is no exception.

This said :

- about the salary, I'm glad to hear you say it (here again, I was sounding like a preacher of apocalypse). If you're a single, a (tenured) Maître de Conférence gig doesn't allow you to lead a normal life in any big city. In Paris, you'd probably have to live in the ghetto. And maître de conférence is a good status. A PRAG (professeur agrégé) teaches 15 hours a week (**) for something around €1500. Things are even worse for the vacataires (18 hours, less money) and ATER.

- about syllabi, they have to be accepted by the State. All of them. Let's say the university of Perpignan wants to organize a BA of basketweaving. They have to write a big bureaucratic report ("maquette", in French), and send it to the ministery at Paris. There, bureaucrats -- most of them actually never put a foot in an university -- decide if this basketweaving BA is sustainable, if it's worth spending money for it. Most of the time they don't accept it entirely. So, they send back to Perpignan a modified basketweaving BA project. The ministery will answer things like : "we want more twining, but less plainting. We can't afford reed, but willow is okay...".  Then the Perpignan people say if they accept, or if they negociate another basketweaving BA project, which they send back to Paris, which comes back to Perpignan, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth....

This, for all academic degrees, at all universities (85 of them, plus the "Grandes Ecoles"). That's what a monopoly of State means.

So, here you think : "that's impossible". In fact, it is. It's so complicated that nobody understands how it works. So, what universities do ? They fake. Hence the absence of syllabi. It's exactly like any sovietic system : when the rules are so complicated that you can't apply them anymore, black market replaces the rules.       


------------------------
(*) the French Revolution, that destroyed the ancient catholic unis ; Napoléon, who created the "Grandes écoles" instead ; more recently the left-wing, who wanted free, soviet-like, collectivist unis...       

(**) that's 15 hours classroom time. You must add administrative work, individual mentoring, grading, courses prep, etc. 

[yvan1]

Once again, my third year students (i am in a top university that consistently appears in every single international ranking) answer their phone when they make a presentation, have never heard of the Vietnam war, think WWII ended up in the mid 1960s, and confuse the 1929 financial crisis with the 1973 oil crisis.

In my classroom, the wall is broken (has not been fixed for a term), and a piece of fabric that serves as an isolant appears conspicuously (I just hope it is not asbestos as it can cause cancer).

US universities have similar problems (e.g. student academic outcomes), but these can be better tolerated when one earns $100,000 and has a 40 sqm office.

And by the way, I work with people with PhDs from all over the world, including Europe and Asia, and there is no relationship between publication output and geographic origin of your PhD.

What makes a difference is your personal drive and energy, which depends more on the individual than on anything else.

[frenchdoctor]

Yes, it's so despairing. With all our money, all our economic power, the only result we got is this massive rise of illiteracy, ignorance, and this incredibly disquieting lack of maturity. Here again : we should read and read again Hannah Arendt and Raymond Aron.

I blame student's centered rousseauist gibberish. But I can't say it. To refuse student's centered BS in Academia today is like being an atheist in the 11th century. It's just unthinkable.

Just imagine a young job applicant saying things like :
- I don't use student's centered teaching methods, and I strongly favor lectures.
- I refuse the principle of teaching evals. I accept peer review, but I don't see how a 17 years old kid, immature and often uncultured, could assess the quality of my work.

What would be his (my) chances to be hired ? Answer : none at all. Talk about academic freedom. It just doesn't exist.

Sorry for the venting mood.   

[luder]

Wow! I've only just now read them, but what a riveting--and horrifying--set of posts by frenchdoctor in this thread!

I have worked as a "vacataire" (an adjunct paid by the hour) at universities in Paris, in the poorer suburbs of Paris, in the provinces, at an IUT, at an IUP, and at some lesser "grandes écoles," and in what he terms his "feeble English" frenchdoctor articulates with such anger and such humor much of what I have often thought about French universities but have never quite been able to articulate--in my native tongue to boot--to myself or to anyone else.

Thanks too for the heads up on Laurent Lafforgue. Today at work--I have left adjuncting for an office job--I read some of his pieces and was moved.

I have to say though that I was dismayed by some of the responses to frenchdoctor's posts. To suggest, as some posters here do, that US universities come by their better reputation solely as a result of superior marketing or that US undergrads are really no better or worse than French university students, is to ignore the gravity of the situation in the French university system.

Finally, so as not to be a pure threadjacker, I'll try to address some of the OP's concerns. In France, it's not just vocational schools that are run by chambers of commerce, as frenchdoctor noted. In business, and perhaps engineering as well, some of the grandest of the "grandes écoles" are also run by chambers of commerce (HEC, for example, is run by the Paris chamber of commerce). These schools hire internationally, at excellent salaries, and are not subject to the Byzantine rules from the ministry of education.

[frenchdoctor]

The fact Lafforgue isn't published in English yet is a shame. I can't believe American scholars read Bernard-Henri Levy, Bruno Latour and Paul Virilio, but still remain oblivious to the best French thinkers. It's like listening to Michael Bolton when Bruce Springsteen is available. Some people, especially at Christian Colleges, should really consider publishing Lafforgue in the US.

[dellaroux]

I'm posting here to cross-reference to the "14 grey days" thread where this discussion has been going on more recently, and so this will show up on my "new replies" lists.

It's also looking as if I'll be there in June, and am wondering if anyone will be in the Paris area near mid- to the end of the month, or is going to the IMS conference?

I'd be interested in a meetup if so, and will start a thread to that effect if I see there are enough others with similar inclinations.

<<Bonne journee a tous>>, I hope your day goes well.

[luder]

The fact Lafforgue isn't published in English yet is a shame. I can't believe American scholars read Bernard-Henri Levy, Bruno Latour and Paul Virilio, but still remain oblivious to the best French thinkers. It's like listening to Michael Bolton when Bruce Springsteen is available. 

Hmph. I liked Lafforgue well enough to translate (not while I was at work this time) one of the shorter pieces on his site. It was apparently a speech to a bunch of Greek and Latin teachers. Here's a paragraph I found particularly nice:

In mathematical research, you’re often afraid to start writing or go on writing because your thoughts seem too mixed up or incomplete to you; you’re tempted to think you’d be better off reflecting first and not starting to write until your thoughts are clear, when you’ve understood. Well, this temptation must be resisted. Because if you start writing, simple and obvious things first, so obvious you’re almost ashamed to write them, there’s that miracle where every sentence leads to another sentence, every page leads to another page, ten other pages, a hundred other pages, your hand goes faster and faster; there’s that always repeated miracle of the autonomous power of language, of the word in actuality most of all in writing, and if you keep going you find yourself discovering little by little new and beautiful things you couldn’t ever have imagined before, things you would have never thought were in you as potentialities that to become actual were waiting for you to liberate them through the word and in the word.

I'm afraid we Americans, scholars or not, will always prefer the Michael Boltons.

[frenchdoctor]

Ralph Raimi, University of Rochester, offers a translation of another text :

http://www.math.rochester.edu/people/faculty/rarm/whyschool.html

[frenchdoctor]

I'm afraid we Americans, scholars or not, will always prefer the Michael Boltons.

The opposite is also true. And Lafforgue is often misread in France as well.

By the way, I don't wish to start some sort of Lafforgue fan club. Himself would hate it. In France, he stopped everything when he started to experience wider media coverage.