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Author Topic: Is Europe even remotely accesible...  (Read 61160 times)
normative_
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« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2007, 02:41:51 AM »

Another point for one university in particular was the drive to get certified by the ESRC. That's the national Economics and Social Research Council. They pay for a year of methodology before the 3 years of dissertation research commences. They call that 3+1. So they were certainly looking for people who know their methods well, even qualitative. That means a lot of direct money for them, and more fee-paying students. So you may want to show off what you can do in this field as part of your general profile, particularly if the institution you're looking at doesn't have a 3+1 programme.
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Fortune favors the bold.

Quote from: mountainguy
Excellent analysis by Normative.
Quote from: tenured_feminist
All hail Normie!
Quote from: systeme_d
Normative, that was superb.
drdirt55
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2007, 06:51:30 AM »

Try the University of Maryland University College overseas program.  I do not know the salary offerings, but from what I have read, you are somewhat of an gypsy instructor, moving around Europe to instruct in their programs. 
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frenchdoctor
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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2007, 05:48:51 AM »

Avoid french universities at all cost. When french academic system was created, it took the sovietic system as a model. Therefore, french system is 100% public, 100% centralized, 100% bureaucratic.

I must add that french universities are non-selective by law (even the Sorbonne, even Strasbourg, and so on). Any student who wishes to apply must be accepted. Practically, it means that government is using the universities as a cheap way to control unemployement statistics : "ghost-students" (as we call them) are prodded toward university thanks to some social advantages and almost free tuitions. Therefore, roughly speaking, illiteracy level at undergrad level can be estimated around 30%. Most other students, though not illiterate, are completely unread. As an estimate, at undergrad level, I'd say that the BEST french universities can be compared with 3rd tier universities in the USA (1).

Plus, it's difficult to describe the state of disrepair, ruin, overall poverty in which french universities are sinking today. I'm too ashamed about my own country to give many examples : broken windows, dirt, graffitis everywhere, drugs dealers waiting at the door of your classroom, prostitution among students (a growing issue here), regular riots ... and so on. At my Alma mater, Strasbourg, when people used to ask the directions to the departement of pharmacology, we had to answer : "it's near the gipsy trailer park".

The Sorbonne's budget (the "great" Sorbonne), is roughly 1/30 of Princeton's budget... With the aggravating circumstance that it's entirely non-selective.

Follow this link, see the pics, they will give you a rough idea of the situation. The pics were taken in Strasbourg, during a recent set of riots, which are common occurence in France :

http://marcbloch2006.skyrock.com/

However, if you want to teach in France, here are a few things.


I- Academic Ranks.

1) ATER (Assistant temporaire), PRAG (Professeur agrégé (2)) and Vacataire (litteraly : "fill-in") are untenured faculties.

2) "Maître de Conférence" is the first tenured rank.

3) Professeur des universités is the higher tenured rank. You have to be "Maître de Conférence" first.


II- Recruitment.

1) For untenured faculties, ATER and Vacataires are recruited directly by the universities, meaning you need contacts with the faculties members first. Don't expect miracles, these are cheap adjunct positions, mostly filled by recent Phd's, and sometimes ABD's.

2) As said in note, you need to be agrégé to become professeur agrégé. Logical. Get the exam first. 

3) the Maître de conférence track, to get tenure, is something different. First, you need to send a scientific dossier to a national commission named CNU (Conseil National des Universités). The dossier usually contains your thesis, the defense report, your CV, list of publications, professionnal experience, etc. As said, it is almost necessary to put an agrégation in the package. This CNU, which gathers once per year, decides if you're worthy of tenure or not (3).

That does NOT mean you will be recruited. Next step, you'll have to be actually recruited by the university. Since the system is centralized, the ministery edicts by law the number of jobs available at each university. Once the university is allowed to recruit someone, it starts the process : advertise the job, read CV, conduct interviews, and so on.


III - Random remarks

1) as you can guess from my (very summarized, I assure you) explanations, tenure track takes a very long time. We're talking about YEARS of bureaucratic hell-on-earth here. That's France.

2) All the recruitment process is AT YOUR OWN EXPENSES. The CNU and the universities don't pay for the travel, the interviews, the hotels and the like. It's money from your own pocket.

3) since universities won't give a dime for recruitment process, inside candidacies (fake interviews with poor sods used as cameo), are much more common in France than in the USA. The faculties have no bad feelings about this, since they don't loose money. As a rule, it's always a good thing for the candidate to have connections in the target university, at the very least to know if the recruitment process is real or fake. 

I must stop here because I don't have much time. Please pardon my english and the likely typos (can't reread myself. Must go).

As a conclusion, I'd strongly advise against any move to France. In fact, must of us are trying to get AWAY from it, in the hope to find a job in a much less bureaucratic country, like Cuba or North Korea. And I'm only slightly joking here.

---------------------
(1) in fact, what we call "universities" are not the best level of higher education in France. The best level is what we call "Classes préparatoires" (or, in short, "prépas") ... something like SLACS. Prestigious "Grandes Ecoles" (Ecole Normale Supérieure, Polytechnique, etc...) use this system, and NOT the run-on-the-mill university cursus.

(2) the "Agrégation" (no translation possible) is an entrance exam that leads to high-school teaching, "prépas" teaching and low-grade university teaching. It is organized by the ministery of education. It is very, very, very advised to get this exam if you want to teach in France. In humanities, especially, it's nearly impossible to get a job without it.

(3) as a sideline note, the CNU is composed like this : 1/3 of its members are named by the ministery, 2/3 are elected on Unions political lists. Imagine G.W Bush advisers choosing who can be tenured or not. I said "sovietic", didn't I ?
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frenchdoctor
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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2007, 06:13:52 AM »

Small precision : with an "Agrégation", you're tenured too, but as highschool teacher.

I know it's complicated. Don't blame the messenger.
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donstefano
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« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2007, 03:35:02 AM »

I agree with most of the above.

2 remarks though:
-The fact that universities are not selective does not mean they are not good. Belgian universities are not selective (everyone with a high school degree can start for a 500 euro fee), yet has some pretty good unievrsities given the small size of the country

-Ok, budgest are much lower than for American universities, but again, there is no direct relation: Universities with 10 times the budget are generally not 10 times better. I sometimes wonder what some US/UK universities do with all that money - They tend to waste a lot.
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normative_
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« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2007, 05:22:13 AM »

FrenchDoctor, I feel for you. I've got Turkish colleagues with the same system, and it's hell. They at least have the advantage of a wildly growing number of universities.

The board system does have the advantage on the surface of detaching you from the support of a single person, as it does in Germany.
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Fortune favors the bold.

Quote from: mountainguy
Excellent analysis by Normative.
Quote from: tenured_feminist
All hail Normie!
Quote from: systeme_d
Normative, that was superb.
expatinuk
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« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2007, 05:53:17 AM »

I do quite a bit of work with a French institution of higher learning... notice I didn't say Uni... they would get quite annoyed if I called them a uni. They are actually quite easy to deal with... but they are run by the Chamber of Commerce.
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Expatinuk seems to be a Soviet Satellite in stationary orbit over the UK

It is what it is.
jtsmr
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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2007, 08:45:22 AM »

Plus, it's difficult to describe the state of disrepair, ruin, overall poverty in which french universities are sinking today. I'm too ashamed about my own country to give many examples : broken windows, dirt, graffitis everywhere, drugs dealers waiting at the door of your classroom, prostitution among students (a growing issue here), regular riots ... and so on. At my Alma mater, Strasbourg, when people used to ask the directions to the departement of pharmacology, we had to answer : "it's near the gipsy trailer park".

This is probably the best post on the French system I've read to date, frenchdoctor.  I taught in France for a while, and you hit the nail right on the head with your itemized list of things.  You know, while I lived in France, I always wondered if there were one thing that the French could do right.  It was a question I daily asked myself. But, when I adjunct at Universite Dauphin, I could never understand why, like at the Sorbonne, ceilings were allowed to continue peeling and have hanging cables dangling from them.  This would be grounds for a lawsuit in America.

I'm pleased that you, as a French person?, took the time to outline a few issues concerninig the French system.  Thank you for that.  I have a few American friends who started teaching in the French system in the 60s, were "lecteurs" and are now "maitre de conference." I don't know how long it took to achieve this feat. But they seem to enjoy themselves.  But we Americans have a "romanticized" vision of things Parisian; we tend to show patience, therefore, with the rage that the French system often puts us in. I recall running into an American girl in Odeon who was visiting from one of the Stans who thought that the French cornered the market on bureacracy!  She thought the system there was primitive/third world.  To a degree, I knew what she meant.  Try getting a bank account or an apartment in France.  Go ahead.  I dare ya.

I do have a question for you, frenchdoctor.  I don't know that French universities award Ph.D.s; I know that they award doctorates but these are not Ph.D.s. but only doctorates.  I don't think any of them award Ph.D.s should anyone be thinking of getting one over there.  Perhaps you know?

Great post!

P.S.:  Yes, to be agrege (can't make accent marks) is an issue and a pain in the ass for my French friends.  I think the exam is 2 days, isn't it?  And for those bold enough to want to still teach on the university level in France, you can apply on the government website, usually by the 10th of October.  You see, as frenchdoctor, states, in France you have to be "eligible" to "apply" for university teaching.  That's just their . . . uh . . . "soviet"-esque system :)

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snape
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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2007, 09:29:04 AM »

We do a lot of Europe-wide projects, but so far we havesn't work with anyone from France. The French beaucracy seeks to lack any flexibility to deal with cross national procedures.
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normative_
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Check, please.


« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2007, 11:17:03 AM »

We do a lot of Europe-wide projects, but so far we havesn't work with anyone from France. The French beaucracy seeks to lack any flexibility to deal with cross national procedures.

The biggest problem is that if they enter into a funded collaborative arrangement, the authorities insist that the publications be in French. That's deterred us.
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Fortune favors the bold.

Quote from: mountainguy
Excellent analysis by Normative.
Quote from: tenured_feminist
All hail Normie!
Quote from: systeme_d
Normative, that was superb.
expatinuk
Has spent over 1000 pounds but now holds a Brit passport!
Distinguished Senior Member
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Posts: 6,653

From SC living in UK


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« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2007, 12:21:24 PM »

We do a lot of Europe-wide projects, but so far we havesn't work with anyone from France. The French beaucracy seeks to lack any flexibility to deal with cross national procedures.

The biggest problem is that if they enter into a funded collaborative arrangement, the authorities insist that the publications be in French. That's deterred us.

Which is why I'm working with an institution that is NOT run through the Education authorities but rather the Chamber of Commerce. They are a total delight... and don't insist that everything be in French. In fact everything is in English. It's a cross Europe program and it's all in English.
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Expatinuk seems to be a Soviet Satellite in stationary orbit over the UK

It is what it is.
merce
strange attractor
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« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2007, 01:49:08 PM »

More about France:

Hasn't the aggregation thing changed? Or isn't it supposed to soon?

Do you have to do the agreg to get a University Poste in France?

Frenchdoctor's post was very helpful but it is still a bit of a mystery. I am tempted to start a new thread on the subject but before I do is there simply a very easy explanation of how one can get a french U maitre de conference job? (I know plenty of people who are ATER and just teach random classes).
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drdirt55
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« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2007, 09:20:38 PM »

The follow-on question to the OP's is, Is Europe even remotely affordable?  Didn't I just recently hear that the Euro is at an all-time high to the dollar.  I thought it was high last year when I visited for two weeks.  How expensive is Europe to live in?
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expatinuk
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From SC living in UK


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« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2007, 10:34:20 PM »

The follow-on question to the OP's is, Is Europe even remotely affordable?  Didn't I just recently hear that the Euro is at an all-time high to the dollar.  I thought it was high last year when I visited for two weeks.  How expensive is Europe to live in?

I would assume that if you were being paid in dollars it would present a problem. However, I'm being paid in Sterling so it's not difficult. Taxes are higher here, but services are also greater.
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Expatinuk seems to be a Soviet Satellite in stationary orbit over the UK

It is what it is.
donstefano
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« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2007, 02:57:05 AM »

expatinuk, funny you say that: I'm from the continent, and say: Well, taxes are lower in teh UK, but then you don't get many quality services for your money.

To other posts: If you don't have savings, it's a good time to come to Europe: you earn in EUR/GBP, and that buys you a lot of dollars when you return. If however your have substantial savings is US$, you will lose a lot of money if you want to bring them to europpe to eg buy a house...
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