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[agnes_us]

Hi everyone. I need some help on this issue.
I'm a 5 year (european) postdoc in the US looking for independent academic positions in Europe. I have been offered a lecturer position at UCL  at the Division of Medicine.
(I'm working on molecular biology related to cardiovascular disease). My salary will be covered for 5 years by the university but I have no start-up package and , no help and no lab space to start with. At the beginning that seemed odd but after finding this forum I realized is much more common that I thought.

UCL is offerning me £30012 plus £2572 London Alowance. This is just at the beginning of Lecturer A level (which I thought that was the level offerered with no significant postdoc experience) Does that seem ok? It seems a bit low for me compared to other lecturer salaries I have seen on the web (Imperial College starting lecturer salary at 36.000 pounds). For what I understand there is little room
for negotiation here...I live now in NY and with my 47.000USD/yr I live in a studio 5 min from my University. I don't want to make this a step backwards either scientifically or personally. I am going to be on my own and I know how expensive London is so I want to be sure that what they are offereing me is
enough...

 Does anyone know if this salary could be supplemented by money from grants/fellowships from MRC/WR/BHF?

Also, I've seen the success rates of MRC New Investigator grants or similar types of grants from other agencies is about 15%. So it might be a bit better than the US (I'm I right?) How often do lecturers get this type of grants during their first years? They told me you don't need that much preliminary data and I'm not changing fields, in fact I'm taking the project I developed in my current lab.

I have delayed  my starting date from Oct 07 till Feb 08 so that I can apply for grants while I'm still in the US and they are OK with that.
Any input will be of help.  Thanks a lot for your help.

Agnes

[snape]

Hi Agnes
Welcome to the forum
Just a warning to start with, you have provided more information than necessary here. It is not usual to provide so much detail (you could be identified by the information you have given).

Only you can know for sure whether this is good career move or not. The salary is not great, but UK academic salaries generally are not. You may struggle to live on your own in London on that salary (though others on this forum are better qualified to confirm for sure). It would be difficult to support a family on that though many people do manage on much much less. Lots of academics I know in London share houses with other people.

The UK universities are in a movement towards a new national pay scale- I'm not sure where UCL is up to on this, but it does explain some of the differences between salaries. Some unviersities and either abolished Lecturer A or abolished the bottom few points.

 

Does anyone know if this salary could be supplemented by money from grants/fellowships from MRC/WR/BHF?


Agnes

University contracts are usually pretty strict in terms of earning any additional  income. I am not in your discipline for I don't know what those abrevviations stand for, but usually grants are used to 'buy out' your salary, not to increase your income.

[agnes_us]

Thanks for the info.
How can I modify my original post?

[august_leo]

I have recently accepted a lecturer A position (no post-doc experience). I will be in the official London commuting area. I won't have a London allowance, but I have a start-up. My salary is less than the one you listed, so I think yours is pretty good for having a post-doc. I read in the US that the pay difference of post-doc no post-doc is $3000 a year starting.

There should be a "modify" button in the top right of your post.

[jim73]

Hi Agnes

I would be looking to negotiate one increment above the minimum pay point for an entry level lecturuer for every year post-PhD you are. Suggesting this is pretty reasonable I think and at least gives you a point to negotiate from

[donstefano]

I agree with the above. 30.000 is too low for someone with 5 y postdoc experience. Especially in London. Our grade 8 here starts at 32000, and that's where you end up without experience. I would negotiate for a number of extra spine points (e.g what a lecturer with 2-3 experience would get). And even then... in your sector other sectors will pay much more.
Given that you lived in NY with that salary, I'm sure you will cope in London, but it won't be comfortable. Frankly, I would only do it for: 1) a higher wage (at least high 30s if it was in London); OR 2) A slightly higher wage, bt then not in London; OR 3) for just 2 years or so to have the experience and a good name university on my CV, and then leave London.

But more practical now: All depends on publications etc. If you have them, then negotiate.

[orienteer]

I don't know anything about the field, but would agree try negotiating.

You see where you are on the scale, and what you ask for has symbolic as well as material importance.

Bottom of the scale can often mean bottom of the pile heirarchically, in terms of internal politics etc etc. Not always, but often.

[agnes_us]

Thank you all for your help. You just confirm my suspicions, they are being pretty cheap, especially with the fact that they are not giving me anything of what I  have been asking them so far: start-up funds, technical assistance. My publication list is good, pretty long (28) though no very high impact journal. But that's one of the reasons why they must want me, I guess.
They have already sent mme the contract to sign, but there is no return date specified. I wil try to negotiate with them the salary issue. Otherwise I think I will keep trying.

For those working on my field, is it that out there to want to get a position in the UK which is reasonably paid with some start-up funds and technical help to start with?

Thank you all for your input.

Agnes

[wegie]

No technical assistance beyond that provided in general by the department is fairly common here (I used to be comp sci not medical sciences, but I used to know the departmental administrator in pathology so I know what was on offer there). You're expected to write the grant applications that give you the money for your RAs in your first year or two.

I did have a quick look around the UCL website, and it seems as if they're pitching their starting salaries for lecturers a bit lower than the norm. I saw several posts starting at 29k.

The bad news is that you may have missed the boat for serious negotiation. Over here, the time to negotiate is before the contract arrives.

[agnes_us]

Thanks Wegie.

No technical assistance beyond that provided in general by the department is fairly common here

I guess I have to make sure then that the existing technical assistance is at least partially availble to me. That's waht I have now at least.

Even if I have a contract they can sure write a new one if they want to right?

Agnes

[agnes_us]

Sorry for my last entry. Got a little confuse with the "quote" thing.
Just to thank you all for your comments and to keep you updated I finally decide that I am not going to take this offer if the salary is not improved (but haven't told UCL that yet, though), I think it is just not worth it at the moment.

Because I don't won;t to dismiss the whole thing right away (I think this could be a good opportunity to set ip my own lab gradually) I wrote an email to the hiring person at UCL and asked for an increase in salary up to Grade 8, stating that that would be similar to what other institutions offer in the London area and that that the current offer would mean a siginificant ddrop in my living standards. He wrote me right away and told me that he's checking with HR to see waht can be done. I just asked for less than 4000 pounds (over here they almost laughed at me for such a ridicule amount and they wouldn't understand how would they risk it (although I know they have other candidates, but probably with worse CVs, that's probably why they are willing to
 compromise) for such a low amount.  I do realize in the UK it is a considerable amount but it's not going to make the dept bankrupt anyway.

 Am I being too pushy/unreasonable?

I hope they do change their mind ans offer me something closer to waht I asked. How long do you think they will take to figure things out? I do realize this will mean writing up a new contract but I guess that's not the end of the world. How often have you seen that happening? Or maybe I'm just keeping my hopes high for nothing...

Any further input will be much appreciated...

Thanks again, Agnes

[snape]

4000 could be better for them then rerunning the search. However, they may not let you go onto a higher grade if the job was advertised at the lower grade (had they advertised at the higher grade they could have got a different pool of applicants).

Let us know what happens.
 

[agnes_us]

Thank you snape for the hint. They have actually offered me now the highest point at the grade they advertised the job (they have argued exactly what you said, that otherwise they needed to readvertised the post). That is 32700+2500 London allowance. This will go up a couple of months later to the 33700+LA I was asking.  I guess this is now equivalent to what other institutions offer and it is reasonable salary for London. I guess this is somehow equivalent to what I have now in the US, althugh it is always hard to compare. I am glad I asked for more! Thanks for the advice!

The university is also paying me (they will reimburse) part of my relocation costs (up to 20% of my salary for an overseas move). I am assuming this is a percentage of the annnual gross salary. Am I right? Does this normally work or is it a hastle to get reimbursed? Does anybody here have experience with this?

Thanks to  all for your help,

Agnes

[orienteer]

hey, it worked, well done.

As for relocation, it is always a % of gross salary.

Check for local rules  on claiming - eg I had to show 3 quotes from a removal firm and take the lowest - but it is normally no worse than local rules that apply for expenses generally. I have never got a sense that Universities try to wheedle their way out of paying. So long as you follow the rules.