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Author Topic: Gun control  (Read 69154 times)
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« on: April 17, 2007, 09:14:17 AM »

Here, if people want to talk about gun control, let's do it in a separate topic from the VT shootings.

Can anyone recommend an impartial source that evaluates the evidence for and against gun control?
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helpful
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2007, 09:21:45 AM »

Here, if people want to talk about gun control, let's do it in a separate topic from the VT shootings.

Can anyone recommend an impartial source that evaluates the evidence for and against gun control?

In the other VT thread there are studies referred to.
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infopri
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2007, 09:41:12 AM »

Here, if people want to talk about gun control, let's do it in a separate topic from the VT shootings.

Can anyone recommend an impartial source that evaluates the evidence for and against gun control?

In the other VT thread there are studies referred to.

Perhaps interested parties can re-post them here, so we can move the debate to this thread and off the VT thread.
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2007, 10:01:42 AM »

Let's start here for a short tutorial.

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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2007, 10:10:29 AM »

From the perspective of epidemiology, gun control can make sense.  If we think of guns as an agent of injury, part of the epidemiologic triangle, then restricting guns can be seen as one way of controlling the epidemic.

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« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2007, 10:18:59 AM »

I still think it is a brilliant idea to restrict bullets. Guns can't kill without bullets.
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sikora
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« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2007, 10:21:45 AM »

My brother has a great idea.  In accordance with some interpretations of the 2nd Amendment, individuals should have the right to keep and bear arms.  But, they should be the firearms available to the framers of the Constitution.  Imagine the VT shooter stopping to reload his musket ....

Keep your powder dry.

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« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2007, 11:19:11 AM »

My brother has a great idea.  In accordance with some interpretations of the 2nd Amendment, individuals should have the right to keep and bear arms.  But, they should be the firearms available to the framers of the Constitution.  Imagine the VT shooter stopping to reload his musket ....

Keep your powder dry.

Obscure, but still the first dog in space

This has been my argument for years.

Guns are always, always bad.  In particular, automatic and semi-automatic weapons, and pistols in general, should be banned completely.  They serve no purpose other than murder.  I am willing to tolerate rifle ownership for hunters who can prove they have passed legitimate gun safety training.  In order to get a hunting license, hunters should have to pass a course every year in proper gun use.  I am speaking as someone who in fact learned how to do that very thing while living abroad (the house I borrowed contained a hunting rifle, and I figured I had better know how to use it, just as I learned how to use the rather different clothes laundering implements).
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« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2007, 11:19:44 AM »

Sorry, I have no stats to back this up, but I've heard it argued that guns get stolen from homes during break-and-enters, thus putting even more guns on the street; also that guns in homes often end up getting used against their owners.
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« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2007, 11:27:41 AM »

It is really time to limit the free access to guns in this country! Our kids are not safe in schools anymore! What else should we wait for?
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gennimom
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« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2007, 11:43:48 AM »

So we want to take guns away from law-abiding citizens. Then the only people who will have them will be the criminals, who WILL find a way to get them, regardless of gun control laws.

Makes sense to me.

NOT.
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« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2007, 12:25:40 PM »

So we want to take guns away from law-abiding citizens. Then the only people who will have them will be the criminals, who WILL find a way to get them, regardless of gun control laws.

Makes sense to me.

NOT.

Gennimom, with respect, I don't understand this perspective. It makes me imagine criminals and regular folks dukcing dowm the street in a runnig fire-fight. How does arming regular citizens improve the situation?

I'm not snarking, I'm really asking.
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« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2007, 01:01:55 PM »

So we want to take guns away from law-abiding citizens. Then the only people who will have them will be the criminals, who WILL find a way to get them, regardless of gun control laws.

Makes sense to me.

NOT.

Gennimom, with respect, I don't understand this perspective. It makes me imagine criminals and regular folks dukcing dowm the street in a runnig fire-fight. How does arming regular citizens improve the situation?

I'm not snarking, I'm really asking.

Actually, it doesn't look to me as if Gennimom was arguing *for* wild-west shootouts, but rather pointing out a problem that gun-control advocates have never, to my mind, satisfactorily answered.... That is: Why do we think that the person willing to break our law against murder will be stopped short by, and obey, any laws against guns?

Logically, this has never followed for me. Throw a kazillion gun laws against Joe Criminal (background checks, waiting periods, no felony convictions, etc.). If he has no respect for laws against robbery, rape, murder, whatever, why do we think he will submit meekly to a law that says "no concealed weapons"? There is a wide black market for underground guns, as we all know. Someone intent on killing someone else is not going to cower before your background checks; he'll make a connection and snag an illegal piece. 

So take away gun shops, tighten the loopholes about purchases at gun shows...what do you do about the black market? I know that the VT murderer got his gun legally. But yesterday he violated our most serious laws (and, I'm guessing, a no-weapons policy at VT)--do we really think that someone intent on that level of carnage would have been stopped by your gun ban?

Of course, you might come back to me and say that if guns simply didn't exist in the United States, there'd be no illegal guns and no black market. Ok: how does that happen? Ban new-weapons manufacturing? Then what do you do about guns already on the streets--ask criminals to turn them in, out of their sense of civic obligation? Good luck on both of those.

This is why people like me (a sane person in a humanities department who does not own a gun) agree with Gennimom. The only people who observe gun laws are the law-abiding. Those who *don't* care about any laws are then in a position of power over the rest of us. Assuming that law-abiding people who possess guns would immediately be prompted either to illegal violence or to bloody firefights is a pessimistic non-sequitur. Besides, even if my option *is* "criminals" and "regular folks" duking it out, when the latter is trying to stop the former in a situation like yesterday's, I would a million times rather have that than an empowered gunman intent on murder blazing away with impunity *until he decides to kill himself*. (How would having an armed person on the scene yesterday, intent on stopping the killing, necessarily have made the situation *worse*?) I cannot see how letting only the guy who says "f*** you" to law, society, and human feeling have the gun is the moral thing to do.

Most of us choose not to act immorally or in an anti-social way even in situations where we don't think the law can successfully punish us. I don't cheat on my husband, I don't smoke crack. There is a huge gap between having access to something and acting irresponsibly with it. Until gun-control advocates can successfully explain to me how they'll compel the lawless to observe these particular laws, I'll keep thinking that it's better for the law-abiding and responsible to have some power as well. 
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2007, 01:05:13 PM »

So we want to take guns away from law-abiding citizens. Then the only people who will have them will be the criminals, who WILL find a way to get them, regardless of gun control laws.

Makes sense to me.

NOT.

An age old argument.  Go into one of your classrooms, though, and ask your students by raise of hands.  "How many of you know someone who successfully defended themselves or others from an actual threat because they had a gun?"  Then, "How many of you know someone who had been accidentally injured by a gun?"  My wife did this in a class discussion about gun control.  No one raised their hand for the first question but many raised their hand for the second.  The risk of bodily harm to self or property just doesn't exist to an extent that needing a gun for defense is realistic.  One is far, far more likely to accidently hurt himself or a loved one with a gun than to use, or even need, one to defend himself.
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« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2007, 01:05:56 PM »

I agree with gennimom. Whether you agree with gun control or not is not the issue. The issue at stake is the fact that criminals will find a way to get and use guns, leaving everyone else unprotected. At least this way there is some form of regulation.
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