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[dr_stones]

I've met Bill Maher. He's a pompous, arrogant, self-important ass.

Sounds like he'd make a good faculty member ... ;)

[dark_globe]

I've met Bill Maher. He's a pompous, arrogant, self-important ass.

Sounds like he'd make a good faculty member ... ;)

Superlative!

[_touchedbyanoodle_]

Prayer, myrealname, is not a Christmas list.

That's a great analogy. In explaining my agnosticism to friends, I've often shared that I can't see the distinction between believing in God and believing in Santa.

(If you can't tell, my posts are written to offer a perspective, not argue. As much as I wish people would question their faiths more often, I wouldn't imagine that anyone would do so based on the contents of an anonymous posting to an online forum. Losing faith takes years of grappling, heartache, and muttering aloud, although a Catholic education can speed things along nicely. Try not to be so touchy. I didn't become agnostic to make you or your God angry. )

[anxiousdee1]

Prayer, myrealname, is not a Christmas list.

That's a great analogy. In explaining my agnosticism to friends, I've often shared that I can't see the distinction between believing in God and believing in Santa.

(If you can't tell, my posts are written to offer a perspective, not argue. As much as I wish people would question their faiths more often, I wouldn't imagine that anyone would do so based on the contents of an anonymous posting to an online forum. Losing faith takes years of grappling, heartache, and muttering aloud, although a Catholic education can speed things along nicely. Try not to be so touchy. I didn't become agnostic to make you or your God angry. )

My Catholic education did no such thing.  I'm not angry about your agnosticism, I'm annoyed by your shallow equation of prayer with wishing.

And no, I couldn't tell that your post was meant simply to offer perspective.  It wasn't terribly interesting, but it evidenced a pointed disdain for the religious.

[_touchedbyanoodle_]

it evidenced a pointed disdain for the religious.

Yes, it did. Explicitly so.

You're making it hard for me to keep telling myself that the low comprehension skills I see in my students are not reflective of the comprehension skills held by those at large in society. I know an instructor who does a fantastic job of teaching developmental reading to older students. I can hook you up. She's discreet.

[anxiousdee1]

Prayer, myrealname, is not a Christmas list.

(If you can't tell, my posts are written to offer a perspective, not argue. As much as I wish people would question their faiths more often, I wouldn't imagine that anyone would do so based on the contents of an anonymous posting to an online forum. Losing faith takes years of grappling, heartache, and muttering aloud, although a Catholic education can speed things along nicely. Try not to be so touchy. I didn't become agnostic to make you or your God angry. )

So why did you insist that you weren't here to argue, to instead offer perspective?  Don't you think that pointed disdain usually provokes argument?  Don't tell me not to get touchy and then own up to your own contempt for me and others who practice their faiths.

I don't need a reading instructor, thank you.  But I'm not concerned with being discreet right now--your original quoting of Bill Maher on religion made me laugh out loud at your utterly juvenile approach to religion.  Others had the same reaction.

[_touchedbyanoodle_]

Now we've both laughed. You're awesome, Dee.

[anxiousdee1]

Thank you.  Laughter is a good medicine, I'm glad I could help you.

[infopri]

I've had students who were "offended" by things said by dead people, for crying out loud-- where's the mileage in that?

Really?  I would be so stunned that the dead people were talking that I'd completely forget to be offended by what they said.

[aardvark]

I've had students who were "offended" by things said by dead people, for crying out loud-- where's the mileage in that?

Really?  I would be so stunned that the dead people were talking that I'd completely forget to be offended by what they said.

Naw, the dead people said the "offensive" stuff years, decades, or even centuries ago.

I'd be honored to think something I say could keep its power to offend many years after I'm dead and gone.

[aardvark]

In light of the question as to whether or not calling for a moment of prayer is "offensive," I had to offer my two cents.

I would have been offended by such a request (but not a request for a "moment of silence"). Why? Because I find religion offensive. Bill Maher recently summed up my views nicely: "Religion is childish destructive nonsense." In times of despair, I am especially offended by the idea of prayer simply because it often seems to take the place of actually doing something to cause good. (That is, doing something other than asking Somebody Else to do something.)

If something you would describe as "childish destructive nonsense" maintains the power to offend you, then you should probably ask yourself why.  Learning not to be offended by "nonsense" is a worthwhile goal to set for yourself.

[_touchedbyanoodle_]

In light of the question as to whether or not calling for a moment of prayer is "offensive," I had to offer my two cents.

I would have been offended by such a request (but not a request for a "moment of silence"). Why? Because I find religion offensive. Bill Maher recently summed up my views nicely: "Religion is childish destructive nonsense." In times of despair, I am especially offended by the idea of prayer simply because it often seems to take the place of actually doing something to cause good. (That is, doing something other than asking Somebody Else to do something.)

If something you would describe as "childish destructive nonsense" maintains the power to offend you, then you should probably ask yourself why.  Learning not to be offended by "nonsense" is a worthwhile goal to set for yourself.

I'll take that as food for thought. It's the "destructive" part that I'm really offended by, though, not the nonsense. I think nonsensical things all the time. The idea of parallel universes really intrigues me.

[neutralname]

Juris

I take your point, although it seems to lead to a conservative point of view, that we should not be bothered by what the majority finds acceptable in a particular context, even if it means being insensitive to the beliefs of the minority.  And I should clarify here: my objection is to the hypothetical case in which a professor tells hus students to pray.  I'm not referring to the actual case of stones who asked for a moment of silence for prayer or reflection.  I've already said earlier in this thread that I myself have had moments of silence in my classroom to remember the dead on days when I have been teaching in the mornings of September 11. 

Maybe there's space for one other rather subtle distinction, before this thread becomes a discussion of the qualities of Bill Maher (of whom I'm not a big fan).  When I'm with family, I do go to church on special occasions, and sometimes when I'm at dinners with family, I will bow my head when someone says grace.  I'm not offended by their requests or their actions, although I don't feel very comfortable. If I were a student in a class and the professor asked for us to pray, I don't think I would be offended either.  I would however be annoyed that someone in a position of power over me assumed that I had religious beliefs.  For me, the issue is that people in a position of power such as a professor should show respect to students and their beliefs.  There may be times when it is appropriate to prod students to question their beliefs and critically examine them.  Indeed, whole courses can be devoted to that.  But professors should not impose their personal opinions on the students.  It's especially important that professors should display this respect when students may be feeling vulnerable, such as during this week. 

Then:

We are very blessed to be able to be "offended" by a peaceful request for prayer rather than something more serious.

Imagine the upset there would be if, the day of the killings, I insisted that my students reflect on the absence of God, the absurdity of religious belief, and the shallowness of those who use religion as a crutch to get through emotionally difficult experiences.  Would it be any defense of my actions if I said "well, they should be glad that I wasn't threatening them" and that they should be grateful that I was giving them a chance of personal growth? 

While your counter-example may be a *logical* parallel to what drstones did, I seriously doubt that you think that this is *contextually* the same thing.  If you do, then I won't try to convince you otherwise, but I'll say that IMHO most faculty, administrators, and students will not see drstones's moment of silence and your (hypothetical) diatribe against students' religious beliefs as-- contextually-- the same thing.

There ARE of course, appropriate contexts in which you could state your beliefs in the shallowness of religion and the absence of God.

What drstones is describing is a common American ritual that takes place on solemn or grief-provoking situations.  100 years from now it may not be a common American ritual-- and heck, reflecting on the absence of God may be the ritual that takes its place. 

The personal growth that the offended might gain from such a situation isn't, of course, a personal growth that they are choosing.  And I didn't intend in my earlier post to equate personal growth with learning to believe in God.  All I mean by personal growth in this context is that (as earlier posters have said) too many people are "offended" by very silly things.  I've had students who were "offended" by things said by dead people, for crying out loud-- where's the mileage in that? 

The personal growth comes from a thought process like this: "Granted that I don't believe in God... still, why am I 'offended' by a ritual that seems to comfort lots of people?  Is it because I'm forced to sit through it?  But this is only a minute or two, and gee, I'm forced to do a lot of things in life that I wouldn't choose-- that 2 hours I spent filing my taxes is time I'll never get back again-- and the fact that I have to sit through 1-2 minutes of what I think is a very stupid exercise, that seems nevertheless to help these other people (who I think are shallow idiots) isn't really that big a deal.  You know, I'm after all too big a person to be 'offended' by something so silly."

The beauty of it is, if you do think the minute of silence is silly, you can actually have that entire thought process I just described IN the minute of silence.

[husqvarna]

I wouldn't imagine that anyone would do so based on the contents of an anonymous posting to an online forum.

Anonymous?!?!

I knew there was something fishy about myrealname... it was just TOO logical.

[rodentmind]

I only teach on Mondays, back-to-back sections of senior seminar.  Last night, for the second class, for no reason, I asked my class to start with a moment of prayer for the brothers and sisters they lost at VTech.

Public university, probably violated several policies, but I really could give a rat's ass.  All I know is that 30+ kids were sitting, thinking about the future, sure that what they did that day would not be their last acts on Earth.  And I also realized for the first time that I'd be willing to die to save one (or several) of my students.

Well, not everyone does pray, so it just would've been more inclusive to say "moment of silence," or "moment of thought," that's all. As you point out, it's the thinking that's important.