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[tenured_feminist]

It's also important to keep in mind that many, many mental illnesses are not associated at all with violence.  Students may be erratic, linguistically florid, dissociated, lacking in affect, or any number of other things without posing any threat to anyone.  I don't feel like I know enough to be able to spot a dangerous paranoid schizophrenic or full-blown psychopath, but I do know that these people are quite rare.

I wouldn't pick up the phone and dial campus security about the student who complains about voices (I've had 'em), can't keep control of hu's talking in class (ditto), or exhibits grandiosity (ditto again).  I might contact the dean of students to see if anyone's looking out for hu.  But everyone should be picking up that phone when a student says "just broke up with my boyfriend and he's really obsessed and is threatening me."  This is one where you can save lives.

The only other time I've contacted campus security was the student who emailed me a "last message" implying a plan to make a grand exit from the university.  He'd been erratic but OK all term, but then stopped showing up.  He sent me a rambling, incoherent, rage-filled final paper by email and I told him to get back in touch as he was in danger of failing the class.  He then sent me this message.  The interesting thing was that when I reported this to the dean of students, I found myself in an emergency multidisciplinary team meeting the next day with all of his professors, the head of residence life, the dean of students, a couple of people from the counseling center, and campus security.  They intervened with the guy (basically just had a couple of people check up on him, I think) and nothing happened.  I have been thinking about this incident a lot over the last two days . . . .

My heart goes out to all the folks at VA Tech.

[grasshopper]

Please be careful here!  Most criminals are mentally normal.  This kind of thinking is why it is hard for those of us with mental illnesses (in my case, bipolar disorder) find it hard to find work, keep friends, etc., when we are honest about our condition.  If you have a mental illness, and others know it, you lose the right to a bad day, blues over a relationship, struggles with family, with late teen angst.  MOST MENTALLY ILL KILLERS KILL THEMSELVES.  ONLY.  NEVER THREATEN ANOTHER.  

MOST MURDERERS ARE NOT MENTALLY ILL.

But some mental illnesses can lead to violent behaviour in some people. My mother was schizophrenic, and often paranoid, delusionally so. When she felt threatened - and this happened regularly - watch out.

Of course we can't say with certainty who will crack and when and how. But I think that keeping a close eye on those who exhibit signs of aggression is doing everyone a big favour - including the person him/herself.

Also, there's a world of difference between a person who commits a single homocide and someone who shoots up building after building of classmates. Comparing the two doesn't quite make much sense to me.

[anthroid]

Obscure, I think we're talking about the same thing here.  People who engage in violent acts such as that at Virginia Tech may not have a "mental illness" in the medical definition of the term -- in other words, they may not meet diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia, bipolar, depression, etc.  And the vast vast majority of people who do meet the diagnostic criteria for mental illness are never violent.

What I'm getting at and asking advice about is:  some students find it difficult if not impossible to mentally cope with "life," "reality," or "stress" (choose whichever), and some of these individuals have the potential for violence.  I believe that an astute observer can sometimes identify warning signs of these behaviors, and therefore some violent acts can be prevented.

Spork, you have far more faith in psychiatrists and psychologists and social workers and other counseling types and the like than I do.  The "mental health" profession is terrible at predicting bad behavior (not to mention treating it successfully).  I would not rely on those folks (and I am a member of one of those professions listed) to predict violence towards others even with clear evidence (like, a gun in hand).

I'm not sure the issue is mental illness; in fact, I'm confident it isn't.  We live in a hyper-violent culture that glorifies guns and shooting and self-indulgence and emotional over rational responses.  Just look at our movies.  Some of the students being described here by fellow forumites are, in some ways, encouraged to behave in bizarre ways by being labelled "mentally ill."  They learn the role and act it out, living up to everyone's expectations (as a sociologist, spork, you know about labelling theory).  When there is unfettered access to guns and ammo, well....disaster is the result.

You can try to eliminate students who behave bizarrely from your classes, but I guarantee we're going to get more and more of these students as we tolerate more and more definitions of odd behavior as stemming from mental illness (given an indulgent child-rearing ethos that calls such behaviors individualistic instead of rude or difficult).

This isn't to say there are NO mental illnesses.  There are.  Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder appear in all cultures, lending credence to the "illness" part (that is, the biological basis) of "mental illness."  The rest, though, are culturally constructed, including the inability of many Americans to stifle themselves and stop attending to their interiorities (e.g., ADD and ADHD) and start attending to what other people might need and want.  I would argue that this shift in culture to a "me first" mentality, coupled with such easy access to murder machines, has resulted in tragedies like VT, San Diego State, Iowa, etc.

And I echo those who are arguing that mental illness, by itself, does not produce violence.  Even those clearly established mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, do not produce violent behavior across the world.  The US seems to bear the lion's share of this violence.  We have to conclude it is because of a profoundly disturbed culture, not because schizophrenic and bipolar sufferers are inherently violent.

[spork]

Making up stuff to fit your hypothesis does no good.  Just wait and and let the evidence come out. 

Well, the most recent information is that the perpetrator was

- a student.
- an English major.
- put his fingerprints on handguns used in both the dorm and the classroom building.

I will not be surprised if the female student killed in the dorm was someone that the perpetrator was obsessed with.

[spork]

You can try to eliminate students who behave bizarrely from your classes, but I guarantee we're going to get more and more of these students as we tolerate more and more definitions of odd behavior as stemming from mental illness (given an indulgent child-rearing ethos that calls such behaviors individualistic instead of rude or difficult).

I completely agree -- I think 18 year olds who have been reared to behave like petulant 3 year olds have no business being in college, and that a lot of what is now called an "illness" or a "disability" is simply the result of bad parenting.  This applies even though the Virginia Tech perpetrator was South Korean.

[anthroid]

You can try to eliminate students who behave bizarrely from your classes, but I guarantee we're going to get more and more of these students as we tolerate more and more definitions of odd behavior as stemming from mental illness (given an indulgent child-rearing ethos that calls such behaviors individualistic instead of rude or difficult).

I completely agree -- I think 18 year olds who have been reared to behave like petulant 3 year olds have no business being in college, and that a lot of what is now called an "illness" or a "disability" is simply the result of bad parenting.  This applies even though the Virginia Tech perpetrator was South Korean.

Yep.

[mickfed]

Not to hijack this thread, but we seem to have strayed from the initial question concerning unstable students.

This is just a part of the profession of “education” that no one ever talks about.  By necessity, to provide “an appropriate education at the public cost,” which is a civil right at the elementary and secondary school level, educational institutions become the providers of a cafeteria of social services – but who else is going to do it?  Who else rescues the child from the abusive home, helps the 14 year-old facing her first pregnancy alone, talks to the 12 year old (or 35 year old) heroin addict about maybe getting some help, handles the WIC and SSI payments, talks to a student or parent about an undiagnosed learning disability?  Today, the comprehensive public school system is the focal point of the health and social services system (and maybe a police substation).

Remember L.D. from the movie Bulworth  “and please don't even start with the school s - - . They ain't no education goin' on up in that mother - - - . 'Cause y'all mother - - - ' politicians done f - - ed the s - -  up. So what they gonna do?”

So what happens to the 80% that make it out of the comprehensive public school, where do they go next?  The growth of the “education industry” has one-tracked that option.  Want to be a nurse’s aid, plumber, electrician, truck driver - - got to go to the community or technical college.  Options?  L.D. again, “how’s  a young man gonna take care of his financial responsibilities workin' at motherf - - ' Burger King? He ain't. He ain't.  . . . That's why y'all sent all them motherf - - - ' teenagers to Iraq. Die over some motherf--' oil money.”   

So what are we going to do?  We could all quit and runaway like I did  -- and my retreat may be sufficient grounds to bar me from this conversation.

So what do we do about unstable students?  This morning, like very other morning,
a number of our brothers and sisters are going to walk back into classrooms and offices knowing full well what happened at VT and other places is lurking just outside their own doors.  They’re going to do their jobs, deal with each student as an individual—even those that frighten them – living up to the challenge that “You got to be a spirit! You can't be no ghost” and we’re all already a little richer for their efforts.

[walker]

Forgive me for saying something unpopular, but I don't think universities should admit students who have a history of mental illness. Protection of the many should always take precedence over giving the benefit of the doubt to an individual. There is no constitutional right to a college education.

[merce]

Forgive me for saying something unpopular, but I don't think universities should admit students who have a history of mental illness. Protection of the many should always take precedence over giving the benefit of the doubt to an individual. There is no constitutional right to a college education.

Oooh baby!
You are SO in big trouble now.

What would a "history of mental illness" be now?
I imagine that the same would need to be applied to faculty and staff hires.
Who would be left?

There would be five people left.

Depression
PTSD
anorexia
bulimia
dyslexia
alcoholism
narcissism
gender anxiety
anxiety
insomnia
kleptomania

[sikora]

Forgive me for saying something unpopular, but I don't think universities should admit students who have a history of mental illness. Protection of the many should always take precedence over giving the benefit of the doubt to an individual. There is no constitutional right to a college education.

This hurts.  I have bipolar disorder, and I struggled with it though college and grad school.  But I made it, not even just made it, excelled. In my worst episodes, I was never a danger to others, but to myself.  Even in manic episodes (which, btw, are not fun or productive times).  

Do I not have a right to make a living?  Or what would you have the likes of me do, go on disability?  Or work only at secondary labor market jobs (with no benefits, so no treatment)?  Hey, there's an idea!  People like me, even though we lead normal lives if properly treated, can be put to work doing the jobs nobody really likes to do.  That's it!  That would open all sorts of places for you normal people in colleges and universities, so you can pursue high paying primary labor market careers.  To make us a little less of a threat, force us to take Haldol or Thorazine, so we will be under chemical restraint.  I'll try not to drool on you groceries while I check you out.

It's this attitude that contributes to the stigma we worthless, dangerous, sicko crazies have to live with.

Any other modest proposals out there.

Obscure, but still the first dog in space

[bio_prof_]

I'm not even going to talk about mental illness; I'm so ignorant on the subject (all I know is the chemical structures of the neurotransmitters involved) that I have no right discussing it here.

Instead, I want to make a plea on behalf of college faculty: Administrators, community, please support us.  Give us at least some rights when we have problematic students in class. If a student disrupts class, let us throw them out. If they are chronic disrupters, let us do an administrative drop. I am trained as a biologist; I can't be a counselor to my students. But at least give me the right to remove studetns who cause problems in my class so I can just do my job. Stop requiring me to be their mother, counselor, friend, saviour, etc. I'm just thier professor.

I'm glad there are institutions who support their faculty; but here, it is all about the studetn getting the degree, whether they learned the knowledge and skills or not. Extra credit is the panacea, and students are coddled by the administration. All a student has to do to get their way is complain about how mean the professor is to the admin. Faculty keep lowering their standards to keep their jobs.  I've had students who need serious help, and for God's sake people, I am not the one who can provide it.  We cannot be all things to all people.

[sikora]

I have students who chronically disrupt class by coming in late, chatting with each other, passing notes, getting up for so called potty and water breaks, sleeping and snoring, letting their cell phones ring.

I say lock 'em up.

Obscure, but still the first dog in space

[spork]

Instead, I want to make a plea on behalf of college faculty: Administrators, community, please support us.  Give us at least some rights when we have problematic students in class. If a student disrupts class, let us throw them out. If they are chronic disrupters, let us do an administrative drop. I am trained as a biologist; I can't be a counselor to my students. But at least give me the right to remove studetns who cause problems in my class so I can just do my job. Stop requiring me to be their mother, counselor, friend, saviour, etc. I'm just thier professor.

Amen

[mcdlt]

Based on my experiences on both sides of the lectern, I've seen an unwillingness to deal with potential problems.  I was the target of a stalker (a fellow student) during my grad days -- I was the fourth person targeted by this stalker, all of us grad students in hus department -- and my department refused to handle the situation until things became really frightening.  The attitude was one of "let's just talk to the chappy."

(DISCLOSURE: I've been under treatment for depression for the last few years and I come from a family that have been longtime advocates for the rights of the mentally ill and for public awareness of mental illness). 

After any of these events (it's so sad that that has to be a plural noun), I am keenly aware that I have no idea how I should respond should such an occurence take place while I'm teaching.  I barely know where the fire exits are.  Should we be asking for some sort of training?

[sociobabe]

Greetings anthroid, from another of 'em.

Spork and Merce, your students are low risk for violence against others, especially en masse.  They are low risk because they are female.  They are at some risk for self-destructive behavior.  In fact, failing in college IS self-destructive behavior.   And yes, I do know that there are violent females---it is up dramatically from 20 years ago.  Females now commit about 11% of all violent crime.  Last I checked, females were 52% of the population.  They are virtually never involved in mass shootings.

Obscure explained, quite accurately, that violent people are not  mentally ill in the clinical sense, but the posts that follow continue to be anecdotes about mentally ill students, and whether they should be "allowed" to be at a university.  I think the poor student who admitted to being depressed and got run out of school collected on his lawsuit against the university.  I hope so.  

These tragic news events remind all of us about the relativity and uncertainty of our safety.  We all want to go back to feeling safe.  

You are hoping that violent people can be spotted by their bizarre or depressed behavior---by you, if you are just alert and perceptive enough and are taught the warning signs, and certainly by mental health professionals, if you just had enough of them on the front lines.  Then you could feel safe again.

My dissertation was on repeat offender juvenile delinquents in treatment.  I worked with that population for nine years, and gathered data on them for two years.  
  
What is not in my dissertation, is that over the nine years of working with that population, I informally, privately, predicted that certain of my clients were capable of and even likely to commit atrocities.  Some just stood out, in their level of ruthlessness and unwillingness to look at their actions, and their lack of empathy.  They sent chills up my spine.  

I wrestled with the question, what should I do about it?   Do I have a duty to warn, when it is based upon a psychological hunch with no defined target?  It caused me many sleepless, guilt-filled nights.  Out of over a hundred young offenders, several committed assaults and went to prison, three of them eventually did commit murder (two of those were murder-suicides).  Two others became victims of murder.  

Are you wondering what my accuracy rate was, in predicting murderous tendencies over nine years, as an expert in the field?  It was 0%.  Nada.  My accuracy in predicting murder victimization was also 0%.  Many continued to offend, but none of my subjects who I predicted to be potentially extremely violent, (and they were scary kids) ever appeared on the news for any crime, violent or nonviolent, after leaving the treatment program.  I would hate to live next door to them, but they did not reoffend.  So much for professional hunches.  

Even my prediction of assaultive behavior was inaccurate.  One kid committed several assaults and I hope is still in prison, his best friend became a successful restaurant manager, and his other friend became a high school football hero.  All three were together in our program.   There was no predicting.  

Fortunately, my thesis topic was not the prediction of violence.  

The three lethal perpetrators were kids that I never suspected.  Later, I did work with one other youth, not part of my study population, after he was charged with murder.  I guarantee that you would not have suspected him, if you had met him.  

What we do know, is that the best predictor of future felony violence is male gender.  But, a majority of males are not going to commit violent acts.  The second most accurate predictor of violence is past antisocial behavior, not mental illness.  However, the majority of people who engage in antisocial behavior in their youth, especially one-time offenders, straighten out and are quietly absorbed into society.  They are bagging your groceries as we speak.  My repeat offender population is at greater risk, but predicting future violence among that population is also very difficult.

Because extreme mass violence is so rare in the population, (and because the perpetrators frequently die at the scene of their crime and can't be studied after) it is very hard to predict.  There is some evidence that violent perpetrators (including some single incident violent criminals and perpetrators of domestic violence) are unusually calm and calculating during their assaults, and very much in control of their actions.  So, judges, anger management class is not the solution.  The loner thing is also not valid.  They are loners (if that is in fact true) because they are violent and mean.  They are not violent and mean because they are loners.

Another wreckless professional hunch---I believe there is a common thread in all the senseless violence against innocent strangers that is sweeping the world right now, and we need to rethink how we raise males in many cultures.  

The problem is, we don't know what the problem is.