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[trabb]

Yes, a totally different thread, because this is NOT the point I understand trabb to have been making at all. Hu was referring to the post-facto sharing of these writings with the general public, which I cannot imagine to have any other purpose than to satisfy ghoulish curiousity. This is a very different conversation from whether and how professors should go about alerting authorities to disturbing student work when it is first turned in to them (which I understand from NPR that his professor did in fact try to do). The latter is morally (and perhaps legally) justifiable, the former grossly irresponsible and just plain sick.

Trabb, is that accurate?

Yes.

[diana_prince]

It's been months since I've posted on here. I came to this forum to read the thoughts of academics, but I should have expected that hatred and anger toward GWB would be front and center in the discussion. Is it possible for you to set that aside?

There's some psychological reason so many of you want to blame GWB for any and all ills in our country. What are you going to do and who are you going to blame when he's no longer in office and tragedies such as these continue? He wasn't in office when Columbine happened.

Get a grip and let go of the tape loop.  While Bush is an idiot and the worst president we've had in 150 years, he's not responsible for this.  His comment about the right to bear arms in this context was, however,  extraordinarily ill conceived and distasteful.  I'm sure the families of the dead were relieved and comforted to know that the Second Amendment is alive and well.

It's unfortunate that people will use this tragedy as an excuse to move forward their political agenda, whether it's about gun control or their feelings toward GWB. You misquoted my post, as it was a response to another post. That's typical of the CHE fora participants. I don't claim to be "sure" of how the families of the dead feel about anything, as you do.

My educated guess is that a lawsuit is forthcoming from at least more than one parent, once the dust settles. Parents will question the policies and the actions of the school administrators. They will want someone to be accountable. They are probably already calling for the university president and the campus police chief to resign. They probably will want an explanation of how the "troubled" student who became the shooter was receiving any type of help or disciplinary action, if reports are correct that the student received two speeding tickets in the course of three weeks, and also stalked women on campus. It appears the university will have to answer these questions.

[trabb]

It's unfortunate that people will use this tragedy as an excuse to move forward their political agenda, whether it's about gun control or their feelings toward GWB.

Oh baloney, as my dad would say.  What would be unfortunate is if we didn't use this tragedy as a reason to move forward on our political agendas through well-informed, well-reasoned dialog.  How could this tragedy possibly not demand that all of us reexamine our basic ideas about how guns should be used in our society?

What is unfortunate is that we collectively didn't pause long enough before starting this debate and that we didn't always conduct it through well-informed, well-reasoned dialog - and that goes to people on both sides of the debate.

[iomhaigh]

Perhaps I'm just too crass of a human being, but I always find myself fascinated with our collective attempts to make sense of the senseless when grieving over unpredictable horrific events.  Arming the faculty... come on. 

There's just no way to prevent such atrocities.  We're humans.  We are not perfect.  We cannot raise perfect children or students. (And, frankly, trying to do so puts way too much pressure on them.)  We get hurt by others; we hurt ourselves; we hurt the ones we love.  Sure, most of us do not kill the others in our lives, but none of us will ever be sufficiently omniscient to protect our loved ones from situations like this. 

It is depressing to have our illusions of safety and order removed.  All the laws in the world aren't going to make us safe.  Even my normally optimistic peace-love-and-happiness Marx-had-some-good-ideas self doesn't truly believe that if everyone is loved and raised well and supported that we can prevent someone from wanting to hurt another person. 

Our lives -- the very foundations of our existence -- are far too imperfect. 

Anthroid, help me out here.

Trying to make sense of such an event is inevitable, human, and all to important.  From my work in comparative healing processes, I've learned that the need to make sense, to answer the question Why me? Why us? in such situations is a human universals.  To paraphrase an important anthropologist who died recently, human beings are creatures who spend their lives suspended in webs of significance.  Without "sense," the web falls apart.  What we are doing here, and all over, is patching the web.  

But it will never be the same.

obscure, but still the first dog in space.

A web of significance is a really intriguing concept (again: me fascinated by our coping skills.  Usually irritated at the media's approach, but fascinated by how people come together to grieve and heal.)  I personally do not think we can ever make sense of it all, but the methods by which we try reveal an awful lot about us as people -- the methods of patching, as it were. 

It will not be the same, but I guess I'm enough of an optimist at heart to believe that even though we'll never figure it out and even though life will never be the same, there will be some kind of good that can come from such horrors -- some strengthening of the web rather than total disintegration.  Of course, I also absolutely holler at the people on TV who spout about meaningless panaceas that merely patch over the top layer without really reinforcing the substructure underneath.  (Arming the faculty.....)

(Of course, I also love Waiting for Godot, the ultimate in people trying to figure it out.) 

Anthroid -- any idea which article Obscure is referencing?  (Or, Obscure, has it come back to you?)

[j_source]

It's been months since I've posted on here. I came to this forum to read the thoughts of academics, but I should have expected that hatred and anger toward GWB would be front and center in the discussion. Is it possible for you to set that aside?

Get a grip and let go of the tape loop.  While Bush is an idiot and the worst president we've had in 150 years, he's not responsible for this.  His comment about the right to bear arms in this context was, however,  extraordinarily ill conceived and distasteful.  I'm sure the families of the dead were relieved and comforted to know that the Second Amendment is alive and well.

It's unfortunate that people will use this tragedy as an excuse to move forward their political agenda, whether it's about gun control or their feelings toward GWB. You misquoted my post, as it was a response to another post. That's typical of the CHE fora participants. I don't claim to be "sure" of how the families of the dead feel about anything, as you do.

A)  It's not a misquote.  It's a direct quote from your post and I was responding to  your exact words.  I was not using this event to further my opinion about Bush. While he is an idiot he is not to blame for this massacre.  Disliking Bush and blaming him are two distinct actions.

B)  If you can't recognize sarcasm as broad as my statement, a text-based medium probably is not the best place for you to try and communicate with others.

[tyy_rad_sci]

For me, the most moving story to emerge from yesterday's horrible events is that of Professor Liviu Lebrescu. In his youth, Lebrescu survived the Holocaust.  Yesterday, as he heard the shots of the approaching gunman, he blocked the door with his own body, and urged his students to flee, to jump out the classroom windows.  Professor Lebrescu lost his life when the gunman shot him through the blocked door.  Having survived one of the most horrible evils in human history, Professor Lebrescu stood in the face of yet another evil, bravely sacrificing his life so that others might live.

Would that we would all have the courage to do the same.

HW

There are also many other beautiful, touching verbal portraits of many of the victims at nytimes.com (including three professors, so far).  For me, reading these little portraits of particular people with their own hopes and plans and accomplishments and personal histories is far more devastating than just hearing the cold facts from afar.

[diana_prince]

It's unfortunate that people will use this tragedy as an excuse to move forward their political agenda, whether it's about gun control or their feelings toward GWB.

Oh baloney, as my dad would say.  What would be unfortunate is if we didn't use this tragedy as a reason to move forward on our political agendas through well-informed, well-reasoned dialog.  How could this tragedy possibly not demand that all of us reexamine our basic ideas about how guns should be used in our society?

What is unfortunate is that we collectively didn't pause long enough before starting this debate and that we didn't always conduct it through well-informed, well-reasoned dialog - and that goes to people on both sides of the debate.

You ask, "How could this tragedy possibly not demand that all of us reexamine our basic ideas about how guns should be used in our society?" There are many questions to be asked about this tragedy, not just a focus on the guns. That's what concerns me so much. By the time this shooter found himself at the gun store, the damage has already been done. He's already disturbed enough to want to kill someone by some method. Why not question the years leading to this student wanting to take another life, by any means? If the guns weren't available, the student would have found another method, such as a bomb or some other lethal weapon. The list of possible weapons this student could have used is endless. The real question should be, why didn't someone pay closer attention to the warning signs?

We're all asking different questions, but really the same question, Why?

The shooter, from my understanding, had two hours to make a nine-minute walk from the dorm where the first shooting occurred to the classroom building where the second shooting scene took place. My understanding from reports is that the shooter then had 21 minutes of a shooting spree. 21 minutes? That's when I start thinking that if someone nearby had a gun, they could have taken the shooter down and he wouldn't have had 21 minutes to kill. That's when I actually start thinking more smart and sane people should be carrying guns. Is that the conclusion you hope I come to?

[mrg96]

I happened upon this thread today and though I've read the majority of the posts, I've been hesitant to respond.  I am a VT graduate and also worked in Norris Hall for years after graduation.  Yesterday was filled with shock, and today I have felt a sense of emptiness as I learned about those who were lost.  Though physically, I'm hundreds of miles away, my heart and all my thoughts are at the Virginia Tech campus. 

I was acquainted with Dr. Librescu, working just down the hall.  I remember he had a sweet face and a warm demeanor.  I broke down when I read his name among the victims.  I did not know him well, and have actually learned more about him today than the years that I worked in the same building with him.  It broke my heart to hear what he went through, but it lifted me up to know that if it wasn't for him, the casualties would certainly have been more.

It's so hard to process everything.  I'm trying to set aside all of the politics and sensationalism, and just get to know and remember those who were lost.  There is no going back now... there is no use in "what if's" for what has past.  There will be time for debates about everything that should have been done, and campus security measures will undoubtedly undergo change, but right now we just need to mourn and support one another through a very real pain.

All I personally know to do is try to celebrate the lives of those who were lost, carry forward the good they brought to the world rather than dwell on the evil of one.  My heart goes out to their family, friends, and everyone in our Virginia Tech family.  We have always been a strong community that will stand together through this.  We will never forget, but I know this will not break our spirit.

Thanks to those who send their thoughts and prayers.

[anthroid]

Perhaps I'm just too crass of a human being, but I always find myself fascinated with our collective attempts to make sense of the senseless when grieving over unpredictable horrific events.  Arming the faculty... come on. 

There's just no way to prevent such atrocities.  We're humans.  We are not perfect.  We cannot raise perfect children or students. (And, frankly, trying to do so puts way too much pressure on them.)  We get hurt by others; we hurt ourselves; we hurt the ones we love.  Sure, most of us do not kill the others in our lives, but none of us will ever be sufficiently omniscient to protect our loved ones from situations like this. 

It is depressing to have our illusions of safety and order removed.  All the laws in the world aren't going to make us safe.  Even my normally optimistic peace-love-and-happiness Marx-had-some-good-ideas self doesn't truly believe that if everyone is loved and raised well and supported that we can prevent someone from wanting to hurt another person. 

Our lives -- the very foundations of our existence -- are far too imperfect. 

Anthroid, help me out here.

Trying to make sense of such an event is inevitable, human, and all to important.  From my work in comparative healing processes, I've learned that the need to make sense, to answer the question Why me? Why us? in such situations is a human universals.  To paraphrase an important anthropologist who died recently, human beings are creatures who spend their lives suspended in webs of significance.  Without "sense," the web falls apart.  What we are doing here, and all over, is patching the web.  

But it will never be the same.

obscure, but still the first dog in space.

A web of significance is a really intriguing concept (again: me fascinated by our coping skills.  Usually irritated at the media's approach, but fascinated by how people come together to grieve and heal.)  I personally do not think we can ever make sense of it all, but the methods by which we try reveal an awful lot about us as people -- the methods of patching, as it were. 

It will not be the same, but I guess I'm enough of an optimist at heart to believe that even though we'll never figure it out and even though life will never be the same, there will be some kind of good that can come from such horrors -- some strengthening of the web rather than total disintegration.  Of course, I also absolutely holler at the people on TV who spout about meaningless panaceas that merely patch over the top layer without really reinforcing the substructure underneath.  (Arming the faculty.....)

(Of course, I also love Waiting for Godot, the ultimate in people trying to figure it out.) 

Anthroid -- any idea which article Obscure is referencing?  (Or, Obscure, has it come back to you?)

I believe Obscure is referring to Clifford Geertz, who passed away a few months ago.  I could be wrong about Obscure's reference, though.

The web of meaning comes down, in most societies, to a belief in the supernatural.  Robin Horton, the British social anthropologist, argues throughout his career that religion provides explanations for the inexplicable, and that many humans seem to have a deep need for order.  Chaos, circumstance, randomness seem to be very difficult for many humans to face. 

Thus we get the wackos talking about arming the professors, or the idiots blaming Asians for killings, or professors for not knowing how to read minds.  The same thing happened after 9/11 and Katrina:  why did these things happen?  Well, according to the nutjobs, it's because we're not holy enough.  (I'm waiting, with great dread, for Falwell and Robertson to pop up real soon to explain VT in this way). 

Humans, in our great hubris, assume or, better, demand that there are reasonable explanations for unreasonable events, and that those explanations are available to us through our anthropomorphic supernatural beings.  Many humans simply can't tolerate the explanation:  tragedy happens, and it happens often enough to make it regular if not predictable.

This apparent need for a deterministic universe, one in which nothing happens by chance, seems to comfort people, despite it being about as accurate as a 10-day weather forecast.

We are never going to know the mind of the shooter.  Psychological autopsies are worth precisely nothing, since there is no one available to refute them.  Profilers cannot predict a thing.  It's all smoke and mirrors, folks, mascarading as "science."  Life is tragic.  "Why?" is pointless.  It is.  It happened.  This series of deaths was horrific.  If guns had not been available, this would not have happened on this scale.  Period.  What's more important is not "why" but "how." 

And, without diminishing the very real suffering of thousands, if not millions, of people tonight, I cannot help but point out that hundreds of people have died in Iraq this week.  What for? 

The point is not to make a cheap political statement but to note that for so many of our fellow Earth inhabitants, random useless death is a constant event, not a horrifying and unusual tragedy.  I am not saying we may not mourn VT; I am not saying we should not problem solve in attempts to prevent future massacres.  I am saying, however, that the bulk of human experience has involved the accidently and randomly tragic; that web of significance to which obscure referred, for many people across the world, includes daily death.

[diana_prince]

And, without diminishing the very real suffering of thousands, if not millions, of people tonight, I cannot help but point out that hundreds of people have died in Iraq this week.  What for? 

The point is not to make a cheap political statement but to note that for so many of our fellow Earth inhabitants, random useless death is a constant event, not a horrifying and unusual tragedy.  I am not saying we may not mourn VT; I am not saying we should not problem solve in attempts to prevent future massacres.  I am saying, however, that the bulk of human experience has involved the accidently and randomly tragic; that web of significance to which obscure referred, for many people across the world, includes daily death.

According to this news report, 85 were found dead across the entire country in Iraq this week. Where are you getting your intel about hundreds dead in Iraq? I think that it is a cheap political shot and way off target for this discussion.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18162972/

[anthroid]

And, without diminishing the very real suffering of thousands, if not millions, of people tonight, I cannot help but point out that hundreds of people have died in Iraq this week.  What for? 

The point is not to make a cheap political statement but to note that for so many of our fellow Earth inhabitants, random useless death is a constant event, not a horrifying and unusual tragedy.  I am not saying we may not mourn VT; I am not saying we should not problem solve in attempts to prevent future massacres.  I am saying, however, that the bulk of human experience has involved the accidently and randomly tragic; that web of significance to which obscure referred, for many people across the world, includes daily death.

According to this news report, 85 were found dead across the entire country in Iraq this week. Where are you getting your intel about hundreds dead in Iraq? I think that it is a cheap political shot and way off target for this discussion.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18162972/

My point stands.  Johns Hopkins has demonstrated that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed in this senseless violence initiated by George Bush.  Death is common in most other countries, including in this unfortunate, tragic war zone.

You're off base.  Focus on the points regarding senseless death.

[infopri]

According to this news report, 85 were found dead across the entire country in Iraq this week. Where are you getting your intel about hundreds dead in Iraq? I think that it is a cheap political shot and way off target for this discussion.

The point is not the numbers, diana.  It's that we here in the U.S. find things like the VT shootings so horrific (thank goodness) in part because, unlike people in many other parts of the world, including Iraq, random death is an everyday occurrence.

Anthroid, thank you for your post (and thanks to obscure, for inspiring it).  I agree with you completely, and I think that at least some of what we're seeing on this and the other VT-related threads--and certainly in the media--is this need to impose order you describe--through blame, through anger, through all kinds of lashing out at one another.

Mrg96, it must be hard to be so far away from your alma mater right now.  My condolences are with you; I hope none of your other acquaintances or friends were among the victims.

[magimax]

This may have been posted earlier in the thread; if so, my apologies for duplicating:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.victims/index.html

I've always admired Professor Giovanni; today she became one of my heroes.

I had never heard of her until today, but now, I second what you said.  I also was terribly moved by the students' spontaneous chorusing of "Let's go Hokies!"  How wonderful it must have felt to erupt with several hundred others, to unleash some of the confusion and anger and retaliation into what must be the most heartfelt school chant ever chanted.

[mytiaraisaskew]

Now they're interviewing the local florists.  Yes, that's right.  The florists.  These are people who are heartbroken, too, and trying to do their best to support the community in the only way available to them.   So I'm not knocking the florists for participating in these interviews.  But what reporter in his/her right mind thinks "hey, we've got every conceivable angle covered, but no one has talked to the florists!  Somebody get on that!" 

I didn't watch much of the coverage today because it has been primarily sensationalizing this horrifically violent and tragic act, but you cannot turn on a TV without being confronted with it in some ways.  Like I said last night, the media has crossed the line.  There is very little respect for the families who are grieving.  And the media knows it--this morning I had the Today show on in the background while I was brushing my teeth and I heard Meredith Viera say something along the lines of how she had been thanked for being there covering the story.  This, of course, made her feel better since she thought that sometimes the media came across as "pariahs" in situtations like these.  Ya think?

[engineer_adrift]

And, without diminishing the very real suffering of thousands, if not millions, of people tonight, I cannot help but point out that hundreds of people have died in Iraq this week.  What for? 

The point is not to make a cheap political statement but to note that for so many of our fellow Earth inhabitants, random useless death is a constant event, not a horrifying and unusual tragedy.  I am not saying we may not mourn VT; I am not saying we should not problem solve in attempts to prevent future massacres.  I am saying, however, that the bulk of human experience has involved the accidently and randomly tragic; that web of significance to which obscure referred, for many people across the world, includes daily death.

According to this news report, 85 were found dead across the entire country in Iraq this week. Where are you getting your intel about hundreds dead in Iraq? I think that it is a cheap political shot and way off target for this discussion.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18162972/

My point stands.  Johns Hopkins has demonstrated that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been killed in this senseless violence initiated by George Bush.  Death is common in most other countries, including in this unfortunate, tragic war zone.

You're off base.  Focus on the points regarding senseless death.

Shame on you.