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[bibliothecula]

My nephew is at VT. He called his mom right after the shots were fired to say he's under a table in the library and is ok- but he still heard the screams and shots and very likely will know some one who's not ok. My god, what will it take to get rid of assault weapons in the US? So sad.

Oh, illuminata, I'm so glad your nephew is safe. What a horrible experience for him.

I'm not ready to turn this into a debate. I just want to offer support for anyone with family and/or friends at VT.

[case_insensitive]

How could one person cause that much carnage?

Lots of ammunition, people in confined spaces, shock and confusion.

As for a 2 hour time span between the first shootings in the dorm and the second shootings in the classroom building, someone, or some people, within the VT or Blacksburg police forces will be in big trouble.    Controlled searches should have been initiated immediately, from the dormitory outward, until the campus was cleared and the shooter(s) apprehended or killed.

Just as a point of info, Va Tech is a very large university with a fairly sprawling campus and, one wonders how they could lock down the whole campus with the number of police that could be available on very short notice (campus cops, town police, and county sheriffs would be mostly all that would be likely to be near by).  This dorm and this other building are not near each other, by the way.  I agree with spork though, that 2 hours between shootings is shocking.  I do want to know how long it took to "lock down" or whatever it is that they did after the initial 911 call.

[gennimom]

Has anybody done any research regarding countries with the lowest crime rates and what their gun control laws are?

Why is it people think taking guns away from the law-abiding citizens will stop the criminals from shooting people? I agree with case, in that the criminals will always find a way around gun control laws.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. If we didn't have guns, they would just use something else.

Sorry, but I had to say something.

[mchap11]

This is truly unbelievable, again.  And so, so sad.  My heart goes out to all the victims and their families.  What could drive a human being do such a thing?
There are no answers, only tears. 

[busyslinky]

Everytime we throw statistics and studies up here...people tend not to believe it...but here goes, a very quick sample:

Canadian Medical Association Journal, Vol 148, Issue 10 1721-1725, JOURNAL ARTICLE
International correlations between gun ownership and rates of homicide and suicide
M. Killias
 

OBJECTIVE: To examine international correlations between reported rates of household gun ownership and rates of homicide and suicide with a gun. DESIGN: Survey. POPULATION: People who responded to a telephone survey conducted by the 1989 International Crime Survey in 11 European countries, Australia, Canada and the United States. RESULTS: Positive correlations were obtained between the rates of household gun ownership and the national rates of homicide and suicide as well as the proportions of homicides and suicides committed with a gun. There was no negative correlation between the rates of ownership and the rates of homicide and suicide committed by other means; this indicated that the other means were not used to "compensate" for the absence of guns in countries with a lower rate of gun ownership. CONCLUSION: Larger studies are needed to examine more closely possible confounding factors such as the national tendency toward violent solutions, and more information on the type and availability of guns will be helpful in future studies. Nevertheless, the correlations detected in this study suggest that the presence of a gun in the home increases the likelihood of homicide or suicide.

Firearm-related deaths in the United States and 35 other high- and upper-middle- income countries
EG Krug, KE Powell and LL Dahlberg

RESULTS: During the one-year study period, 88 649 firearm deaths were reported. Overall firearm mortality rates are five to six times higher in HI and UMI countries in the Americas (12.72) than in Europe (2.17), or Oceania (2.57) and 95 times higher than in Asia (0.13). The rate of firearm deaths in the United States (14.24 per 100 000) exceeds that of its economic counterparts (1.76) eightfold and that of UMI countries (9.69) by a factor of 1.5. Suicide and homicide contribute equally to total firearm deaths in the US, but most firearm deaths are suicides (71%) in HI countries and homicides (72%) in UMI countries.

[old_school]

Here's a crazy idea:

How bout we try to get 24 hours, or at least have enough respect to let the body count get finished, before we turn this into a political debate - pro or con gun control or pro or con fill-in-political-figure's-name?

Trust me, they'll be time tomorrow.

Here here!

Shouldn't that be "hear hear" .. you know, like "yes, hear what he says"? I'm not trying to be snarky (?) .. just wondering about this (I keep hearing it, but not seeing it in writing).

The death toll just keeps going up.  This is a time for sorrow, not political debate.  Time enough for that tomorrow, at least for some of us.

My heart goes out to all those personally touched by this.  It is frightening that our classrooms can so easily become a place of fear.

agreed!

[trabb]

I enter this discussion with a heavy heart, and I would echo what john_proctor said - save this discussion for another day.  Since this thread started, we have heard claims from both sides that sound pretty much like what my first-year students say: "no-one should have a right to own certain types of guns...", "guns don't kill people, people kill people." 

I point that out not to call into question the posters who have said those things, both of whom I know to be logical, well-intentioned, and intelligent people.  I point it out only to say that the gun control debate is emotionally charged to the point that otherwise clear-thinking people let their emotions and passions govern their thinking.  I include myself in this; I would claim to be passionately in favor of gun control, yet I honestly have never done much research on the subject.  When such an issue is debated (and I use that term rather loosely) in the context of and in the near proximity to today's tragic events, nothing good will be accomplished.  Today's events should spark national debate, but only after an appropriate period of reflection has passed.

[draco]

People are likely to be simultaneously shocked, saddened and angry right now.  There is no place for a reasoned discussion of the politics at this point.

Please let the friends and family of victims, anyone living in Blacksburg, and anyone who knows people at Virgina Tech have some time to mourn, to recover, and to gather themselves.

[bio_prof_]

Oh, illuminata, I'm so glad your nephew is safe. What a horrible experience for him.

I'm glad to hear your nephew is safe too, illuminata.

this is so awful.

[mosaic]

My brother teaches at Tech.  He's fine; he was in the next building over.  From his office he heard the shots and could see bodies being carried out.  As of a couple of hours ago, they were still in lockdown.  It may have been lifted by now.  So so so sad....

[bio_prof_]

Glad your brother is OK.

I keep writing this, but this is so awful.

[magimax]

How could one person cause that much carnage?

Lots of ammunition, people in confined spaces, shock and confusion.

As for a 2 hour time span between the first shootings in the dorm and the second shootings in the classroom building, someone, or some people, within the VT or Blacksburg police forces will be in big trouble.    Controlled searches should have been initiated immediately, from the dormitory outward, until the campus was cleared and the shooter(s) apprehended or killed.

Just as a point of info, Va Tech is a very large university with a fairly sprawling campus and, one wonders how they could lock down the whole campus with the number of police that could be available on very short notice (campus cops, town police, and county sheriffs would be mostly all that would be likely to be near by).  This dorm and this other building are not near each other, by the way.  I agree with spork though, that 2 hours between shootings is shocking.  I do want to know how long it took to "lock down" or whatever it is that they did after the initial 911 call.

CNN's been saying that the first 911 calls seemed to have been treated as a "one-off" event and the police were reacting and deciding what to do.  The eye-witness students who have been interviewed by CNN have related how chaotic it was at the dorm; I suppose it would be easy for the shooter to leave and who would imagine that he would show up across campus to wreak more carnage.  I hope the police are lauded for their work and not criticized.  How can they control any of this?  From what I've seen and heard, it sounds like they did and are doing their best to respond.

Lockdowns in K-12 schools are easier b/c of the single building and the public announcement system.  How *does* it work on campuses of multiple buildings??

The other scary thing is the bomb threats to VT last week and all the questions related to that - is this the same person who did the threats?  Guess we'll find out...

[zarathustra]

Bush is on TV talking about it now.

[infopri]

There was a shooting on my campus about 25 years ago.  A disgruntled ex-employee shot and killed his former boss in a colleague's office, then killed himself.  The colleague was, at the time, my (now) husband's girlfriend.  She wasn't there to witness the actual shooting, but she got to to see the crime scene shortly afterward--before it was cleaned up.  And she got to be reminded of it, every single day, when she went to work.  (She eventually changed careers, for other reasons.)  I don't want to be graphic, but suffice it to say there were visual...reminders.

It was kept pretty quiet, somehow.  Of course, this was before ubiquitous Internet connections and cell phones and the rest.  There was a story in the local news that night and in the next day's paper, and that was it.

If people really want to debate gun control, perhaps that should go on a separate thread.  Let's reserve this thread for news updates, reflection, emotional support, and the like.

And in that spirit, my thoughts are with everyone who was touched by these awful events.

[old_school]

CNN's been saying that the first 911 calls seemed to have been treated as a "one-off" event

I am not familiar with this expression, what does a "one-off" event mean?