next »

[matand]

Excuse my harsh tone, but ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

It is their responsibility to attend to class and to get there on time.  You shouldn't have to wait 2 minutes, let alone 15 or 20 minutes.

And other profs that are enabling this behavior, definitely shame on them.

This is the real world, time for them to grow up and learn that life doesn't begin only after 8:15 am.

[cc_alan]

Excuse my harsh tone, but ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

It is their responsibility to attend to class and to get there on time.  You shouldn't have to wait 2 minutes, let alone 15 or 20 minutes.

And other profs that are enabling this behavior, definitely shame on them.

This is the real world, time for them to grow up and learn that life doesn't begin only after 8:15 am.

And before someone writes "but that's not how it happens in the real world", many years ago I was reprimanded for routinely showing up 5 minutes late to work. It was written-up and went into my file.

Alan

[infopri]

And before someone writes "but that's not how it happens in the real world", many years ago I was reprimanded for routinely showing up 5 minutes late to work. It was written-up and went into my file.

Me too, Alan.  It was my first full-time job.  I'd just graduated from college and still didn't understand that being late to work, unlike being late to class, had penalties.

In fact, I almost got fired from that job for being a few minutes late to an 8:00am meeting, even though the person I was meeting with hadn't even realized yet that I wasn't there.  (She was in the conference room, getting coffee and schmoozing with my colleagues, and she assumed I was still in my office down the hall.)

I think we do our students a disservice if we allow them to be habitually late.

[anthroid]

And before someone writes "but that's not how it happens in the real world", many years ago I was reprimanded for routinely showing up 5 minutes late to work. It was written-up and went into my file.

Me too, Alan.  It was my first full-time job.  I'd just graduated from college and still didn't understand that being late to work, unlike being late to class, had penalties.

In fact, I almost got fired from that job for being a few minutes late to an 8:00am meeting, even though the person I was meeting with hadn't even realized yet that I wasn't there.  (She was in the conference room, getting coffee and schmoozing with my colleagues, and she assumed I was still in my office down the hall.)

I think we do our students a disservice if we allow them to be habitually late.

I agree.  I've almost fired people for being late...and I certainly bring up students' tardiness when (inevitably) they complain about their poor grades.  "If you'd get here on time," I tell them, "perhaps you might comprehend more of the material."  "But I can never find a parking place! It takes me 15 minutes to get a space!" they whine.  "Then get here 15 minutes earlier."  Case closed.

[mythbuster]

My thesis adviser had a similar problem. He was teaching a med school class at 8 am. There would only be a smattering of students at the start of lecture and then about half way through, the rest would show up and be very disruptive as they settled in and got out their notebooks, etc. So one day he locked the doors at 8 am and lectured to those who were there. The mass arrived as usual and BANGED ON THE DOOR, yelling to be let in. He went to the door, told them that only those who arrived on time would be allowed in. Then he proceeded to give the students there a "pop quiz" that the students outside could watch him do through the window in the door (pop quiz was questions about your name, address, and favorite pet). The next day, many more students were on time. After that, they were either there on time, or skipped the class entirely.

[conjugate]

Obviously, I am too nice to my students (but just try telling them that).

I came in one day to an upper-division class that had been allowed to "make" with only three students.  (It had to make because one of the students was a graduating senior who needed only this class to graduate, and no other class would fill the slot in her degree plan.)  Nobody was there.  I sat down and started grading papers for another class until a student showed up. 

In a related note, let me give you an anecdote about the mathematician Mark Kac.  He took a seminar from another mathematician, Hugo Steinhaus.  One day, only Kac and another student were present.  They naturally asked whether Dr. Steinhaus would be cancelling class that day, and Steinhaus replied, "Tres Facit Collegium" (or "Three make a college").  The next time, Kac was the only student left.  Steinhaus walked in and began lecturing.  Kac asked, "What about tres facit collegium?"  Steinhaus (an atheist) is alleged to have responded, "God is always present," and continued his lecture.  I recommend the interested reader peruse Dr. Kac's autobiography, Enigmas of Chance, eminently readable to the non-specialist.

[just_dave]

This isn't quite the same thing and my situation in Japan isn't quite the same as in the US, but I have to vent somewhere and this is as good a place as any.

I have a 9am class this semester (and every semester) which is the "earliest" class on the Japanese schedule.  Anyway, there were 20 students on the roster.  Only 8 showed up for the first day of class.  Nevertheless, I started in as usual but did slow down the pace so I wouldn't cover too much material.  After all, first weeks are pretty notoriously slow with students sorting out registration problems.  But I figured I could go all out in the second week (which was the second class meeting).  Wrong.  Of the 10 who had eventually shown up in the first week, only four were back.  And there was a new group of 6 there for the first time. Still I pushed forward.  But things are beginning to look pretty grim for this particular group of "students."

Last week I gave a small assignment to get people into the swing of the class (a swing that involves more than just physically showing up in class every 7 days).  It was a pathetically easy assignment for a pathetically easy class (a second year cross-cultural awareness/EFL course).  Last week they picked a "country card" from a deck of cards and were then to draw a map of that country and the country's flag (on A4 paper) which required a very minimal token amount of "research."  Of the four second timers who showed up only one had done the assignment, quickly sketching the map and flag on a sheet of lined B5 notepaper.

I publically and loudly went through each student's name (including the absent students to make a point) announcing that they have (not past tense) an F on the first assignment -- and thus an F so far in this course.  I also informed the new students that they also had an F on this assignment -- but that if they brought me the assignment the following week, I would give them (no higher than) a C on it (Japanese universities don't have Ds).  This option was not extended to the student who simply chose not to do it.  They have an F pure and simple.  I also informed them that in the future if they were absent they were still responsible for class assignments.

I have a rigid attendence policy - or at least the students think it's totally hardass.  Over the span of a semester long class that meets only 14 times, students have "three emergency days."  I don't care why they're absent.  They can go to the beach or be in the hospital.  They get three days.  If they are absent a fourth day they fail.  If they are late that counts as 1/2 absent.  I take attendence in the first minutes of class.  If students comes in AFTER I've taken attendence, they are late.  It is their responsibility to come up to me after class and tell me they were late.  If they don't do this, the attendence sheet simply lists them as absent.  I tell them this again and again. 

Nevertheless, I can already tell which students aren't going to make it to the end of the class and probably not past the fifth week.  There is no formal "drop" system so in some sense this is just the Japanese equivalent.

In two weeks they have another assignment due.  This is a much larger assignment that will involve multiple hours of outside work -- but still ridiculously easy for a college level class.  It involves a bit of geography so that they aren't looking for Brazil in Africa. or Vietnam in South America.  I fully expect half the student not to do it, or not to to it as per the requirements.  I've told them that if they don't do this assignment as required, I absolutely will not let them pass this class.  It's a sort of gatekeeper assignment.  I will allow students who don't have it done in two weeks -- one final chance to turn it in (but I haven't told them this yet).  In this case the best grade would be a C (barely passing in the Japanese system).  If they don't get it in for this second chance I'll simply tell them that there is no further point to them coming to class as they have and will continue to have an F in the course.  Yes, I can get away with this approach to grading in the Japanese system where the sensei is god in such matters.

Still I believe that 2 or 3 will not do the assignment.  Maybe more.  It just doesn't fit their conditioned-in belief that being a university student involves no more than physical presence once a week.  They will fail.

Tough.  That's the way it is.

But it is personally frustrating.  Rant over.  Now I'll got sit out on my balcony.

[just_dave]

I should add that the reason I'm tell you all this now is that last week was the first week of the First Semester here in Japan and this morning was my second meeting with these students.  This used to be a really fun class to teach a couple of years ago but it's really gone downhill as my university (like most Japanese universities facing a demographic crunch) reaches further and further down into the high school barrel.

[matand]

I hand out a document at the beginning of the semester that shows students what behaviors they can expect from me.  These behaviors include showing up on time, and not ditching out early.  Thus, if I show up at 8am then they must show at 8am.

I have been in a leadership position (outside of teaching) where I became frustrated with people complaining about the late meetings but not showing up on time.  I therefore began locking the doors promptly at 7pm, and late attendees had to sit outside.  It significantly cut down on lateness.

And again, this is also an issue of respect.  If this were a job, would they show up to meeting with their boss 15 minutes late and expect there to be no consequences? 

[gesualdo]

I agree.  I've almost fired people for being late...and I certainly bring up students' tardiness when (inevitably) they complain about their poor grades.  "If you'd get here on time," I tell them, "perhaps you might comprehend more of the material."  "But I can never find a parking place! It takes me 15 minutes to get a space!" they whine.  "Then get here 15 minutes earlier."  Case closed.

Case closed?  Not necessarily.  I was once forced to drop a graduate-level class during my undergrad years, not because I couldn't handle the work, but because I couldn't get there on time.  I was in my last semester of classes before my student teaching semester and immediately before class, I was off campus, observing at a local high school.  In theory, I had enough time to get from the high school back to the university campus, hop a bus, and skirt into class right on time.  Unfortunately, this class took place during the busiest part of the day for students and finding a place to park often took an extra 15 minutes.  I could either leave observation early (out of the question) or routinely show up to class 15-20 minutes late.  I finally gave up and dropped the class because I needed to be there on time in order to keep up.  My instructor was actually very accommodating, so when I dropped the class, it was my own decision.

If you're dealing with an otherwise good student, I wouldn't call it "case closed" so absolutely.  However, if it's obvious the student doesn't get the material, and being late is a cause of it, then absolutely, you should not accommodate that student.

[philoctetes]

Students who have a good reason for coming late may get special dispensation from me, but my general policy is if you are late you wait 'til break.

I don't think one should be unyielding, but rules like this do teach something.

Perhaps they even keep them from be fired from their first jobs for excessive tardiness.

I agree.  I've almost fired people for being late...and I certainly bring up students' tardiness when (inevitably) they complain about their poor grades.  "If you'd get here on time," I tell them, "perhaps you might comprehend more of the material."  "But I can never find a parking place! It takes me 15 minutes to get a space!" they whine.  "Then get here 15 minutes earlier."  Case closed.

If you're dealing with an otherwise good student, I wouldn't call it "case closed" so absolutely.  However, if it's obvious the student doesn't get the material, and being late is a cause of it, then absolutely, you should not accommodate that student.

[philoctetes]

Do people have a minimum number of students they would "do class" with?  Would you lecture if only one person in a class or 20 showed up?

I would teach one student, but I would not lecture. I would give him or her a tutorial.

It was done for me once when all but 2 of us dropped a seminar course, as the two of us were not interested in the same things, the prof set up individual tutorials.

[stapler]

Do people have a minimum number of students they would "do class" with?  Would you lecture if only one person in a class or 20 showed up?

I would teach one student, but I would not lecture. I would give him or her a tutorial.

It was done for me once when all but 2 of us dropped a seminar course, as the two of us were not interested in the same things, the prof set up individual tutorials.

I've never had just one student show up to a lecture, but under those circumstances I would not hesitate to go forward with the lecture (though I'd also feel crummy that nobody else felt it worthwhile to show up!).