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[ajarn]

Ok, first a little background. I am a Midwestern mom-and-apple pie-bases hat wearing American; however, I have spent the last 10 years living abroad. I work as a full time instructor for one of the largest and most prestigious universities in a country in Southeast Asia and have recently completed a PhD. I am the poster boy for non-traditional education, I didn’t begin university studies until I was in my 30s, I completed my undergraduate degree from a US University located abroad, my masters from a foreign university and my PhD through distance education from an American University. I realize that there is a certain level of “snobbery” in academia and I will be disqualified from a number of positions because of the lack of “quality” of my education despite having outstanding teaching experience, evaluations, practical experience in my field, as well as a long list of academic publications including a few books by recognizable publishers.   

So I have been testing the waters, I sent out somewhere around 50 applications to US universities and organizations and about 20 to international universities and organizations. I have received responses from about half of the international organizations I have contacted, I did a video conference interview with a university yesterday that seemed to go well am I am being flown to Europe (from Asia for those who are unfamiliar with my nickname) next week by another organization. Also I am in various stages of the process at a few other places. However, only two replies from the US, both informing me that someone else was hired and I was never really in the running.

Mostly I have applied for more prestigious positions abroad, and in the US I have applied for a variety, including a number of community colleges. My application just seem to end up in a black hole, no acknowledgment of receiving the applications and of course nothing even close to asking me for an interview.

I realize the talk in the USA of valuing international experience in mostly empty rhetoric, but I thought somewhere in the US there might be some university interested in the services of a multi-lingual international scholar who has published a number of works?

Actually I enjoy living abroad and all things being equal, I would choose a foreign assignment over a domestic one and it looks like I will have a choice of assignments abroad. But should I consider returning to the US to be a non-option for me?

Can anyone guess why I don’t even get a second look from US universities? Is it my non-traditional education that turns them off? Is it my having lived and worked for considerable time in foreign countries? Is it because I have military experience and therefore might be thought to hold non-PC political views?

Should I concentrate on building a career internationally and accept as fact I will not be able to ever return to the USA (unless I want a job flipping burghers)?

Any thoughts or comments would be welcomed.

Ajarn
 

[tiooswaldo]

I would think the main problem might be the PhD through distance ed more than the other factors. That being said, with pubs and teaching and international experience, I think you will eventually be able to find something in the US if you want, it is just a matter of sending more apps over time

[ajarn]

tiooswaldo

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Interesting observation, as I live abroad and have never actually attended a university in the USA, although I am a 100% yank, I am out of touch with the mentality. Actually I thought the opposite would be true, I thought European and other foreign organizations would eye the non-traditional degree with more suspicion than schools would in the USA. Oh, I realize I am not blue-blooded enough for an Ivy League school, but I thought there would be SOME US universities that would be interested in someone who has ‘come up the hard way.” Actually, non-US universities and organizations seem to be far more interested in what I have learned and not where I learned it.

I may not know much, but one thing in life I have found out is one can not change the world to fit one’s own situation. Sure, it would be nice if snobbery was eliminated or lessened in the world of academia, but I have to live in the real world and the last thing I want to become is a bitter old man spending all of my time in a fruitless attempt to change the system. Maybe in the future, the US academic system will allow for qualified and productive but non-conventional scholar, but in the meantime looks like it would be the continuation of the life of an ex-pat for me.

Could be worse I guess.

Cheers   

[avaya]

It is not snobbery.  It is concern over the quality of distance education.  Plus the fact that you are currently overseas, and it would be extremely expensive to fly you in.  There was another thread on this recently.

It also depends on what field you are in.  If you are in a saturated area, you have to know that there are many many people with a traditional PhD (not via distance education) from top schools already in the States dying for a tenure-track job.  That makes it extraordinarily hard for you to compete, if not impossible.

But if you are not in a saturated area, then you probably have a better chance - although honestly, the distance education thing will probably always be a factor.

Do you mind if I ask, what university did you get the PhD from?

[ajarn]

Avaya

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Again, interesting that you mention the non-traditional education thing, but again, this doesn’t seem to be an overriding factor in British, Australian or other non-US organizations. If I will forever be “blacklisted” in the USA due to the name of the university on my degree, then living abroad ain’t so bad. Looks like I will have a few offers to choose from by the end of the month, but these are all in Europe, Asia and the Middle East (Of course I could stay where I am at also).

I am going to have to disagree with you on anti-distance learning being concern over quality of education versus snobbery. Obviously the selection committees can review the peer-reviewed articles and other work a candidate has written to assess level of scholarship ability. If one has 3 to 5 articles approved for publication in peer-reviewed journals each year (Plus a few books), chances are that individual had a competent education (even if it was mostly self-taught). To be able to a full time graduate student pretty much requires one to be from a fairly well-to-do family in order to spend 10 years studying without any income (Yes, I realize there are excepts). Dividing people from traditional educational backgrounds and non-traditional has more to do (IMHO) on social class that scholarly ability, there are far more accurate methods to judge scholarly ability than to choose from only those who could afford to do a doctoral degree in a traditional manner.

But, in the end it doesn’t really matter why for my case, does it? I am not going to spent my life banging my head against a brick wall, there are plenty of good places to work, and good publishers, in Asia, the UK, Australia and other places.

Kind of weird, in most aspects, Americans are more egalitarian than people in most other cultures, but the reverse may be true in Academia.

Cheers

PS, The university was not associated with a major city in the southwest, but another university of about the same category as far as size and perceived quality goes (good enough hints?)

[avaya]

Ajarn, you sound very bitter.  I'm sorry about that.

The fact is, you most likely in competition with lots of people with publications, great teaching evaluations, great references ... and they have a PhD from a top school.  You have a PhD from an online school (is it Walden?).

I have friends with PhDs from very good traditional schools, publications, teaching experience, conference pubs ... and they have a hard time getting interviews.  Do they claim foul and say "snobbery"?  No, they say "SUCKY job market."  I have one friend in particular with a PhD from a top-ranked school, publications, really great evals ... and the only job he could land was outside the US.

You may not like it, but finding someone for a tenure-track or tenured position is NOT about "Who would be OK?"  It's about, Who is the ABSOLUTE BEST person we can hire?  And other people will also have great pubs, books, references, evals ... and a PhD from a top school.  There's no question - they will beat you out almost every time.  Where a professor gets their degree from matters to the school, because it matters to donors, to alumni, and most of all, to potential students.

Is this snobbery?  Well, if it is, it's snobbery that you definitely could have anticipated before making your decision about where to get your PhD.  A PhD from an online school will basically kill your chances at most academic careers in the US. Again, I'm sorry that you are unhappy about this, but it's not as though this should come as a surprise to you.

It sounds as though you have some excellent options in Europe, so I congratulate on that and hope that you are happy with whatever choice you make.

[ajarn]

Avaya

Wow, interesting take. You have read a lot into my post that was not intended. Bitter? Not really, I am quite excited about my future possibilities. As I am in the field of international business, academia is not my only option; in fact of three jobs I am most seriously considering only one is directly in academia (Non-academic US based organization also don't seem to have any interest in my services).

I am a realist, and there is no reason for me to bang my head against the wall attempting to change the world. I do not know if your attitude is typical of those in academia in America, but it is obvious that “brand name” of school means a lot to some. I am not stupid, obviously I knew this when making the decision to pursue a PhD, but it did not realize how threatened some more traditional American scholars would feel by us from the other side of the tracks and how passionate they would be about making the distinction in mode of instruction ad protecting their turf. If US-based academia does not have a need for someone with my talents, that’s the way it is. The world is a big place with nearly unlimited opportunities; academia in the US is only a minor sliver of the whole world.

No, not Walden, but I am not quite sure why you want to know. You do seem passionate about barring the entrance to the ivy halls to those of us with “lesser” academic backgrounds and I am sure we will never see eye to eye on this issue. (For your information, I was not overly thrilled with the level of instruction and the low standards accepted at my uni, but no one said I had to only meet the minimum standards and I went far beyond what was required and developed my talents to a level to where I am now able to collaborate and work with scholars from very prestigious universities from around the world).   

PS Actually most of my opportunities are in Asia, it is where I have lived and studied, I am being flown to Europe this week to discuss becoming a national director for a European organization in Asia. Also I have also previously worked for a private European firm in Asia. Most of my publications are Asian focused, but published in European journals.

Life is too short to be bitter, and the last thing I want to do is continue pursing a path that is blocked to me, there are plenty of other paths to go down.

[freewill07]

I prefer US because all the money is here.

[just_dave]

OK, here's a fellow long-time expat's take of this.  Yes, it will be difficult to make the transition back to the US -- for all sorts of hard to nail down reasons.  Let's just call it "fit."

First of all, you'll need to realize is that many academics see grad school (in the US) as a kind of apprenticeship system.  Everything from the hoop-jumping process of applying to grad school (ideally with full funding) to the trials of TA-ing, to collaborating with advisors on conference presentations, to negotiating the formalities of the dissertation bureacracy is all geared towards socializing the grad student into the world of professional academia.  Getting a Ph.D. is only very marginally about "knowledge and scholarship."  It's about learning the ropes.  Most US faculty went through this process and will be deeply suspision of anyone who didn't.

I'm in a similar boat.  I have a traditional BA and MA from a US university but my Ph.D. (completed 20 years later) is from a UK university.  I don't think of it as "distance education" in that I did exactly what any other Ph.D. candidate at a UK university would do, but I'm not sure US search committees will appreciate the distinction.  And yes "online" degrees have a very bad reputation - whether deservedly or not. 

So this is something you will need to specifically address in your application materials.  You need to show that you completely understand the day-to-day workings of a US university  -- or community college.  Does your application package look more or less like everyone else's?  A CV and a cover letter is certainly not going to cut it.  Does your application package include a couple sample course syllabi -- syllabi that would not look out of place at a US university?  Have you included a "teaching portfolio" to compensate for the fact that you probably don't have the traditional student evaluations that most applicants have?  Do you have strong letters of recommendation from scholars in the US.  A letter from your current boss isn't going to mean much.  Do you co-present with US scholars?  In short, can you somehow document a connection with what's happening in your field in the US?

Second, it's all about field.  You don't mention your specific field but from what you're written I take it you are positioning yourself as some kind of "Asia specialist."  That's going to be a hard sell in the US.  You talk about sending 50 applications out to US universities.  Honestly, I have a hard time imagining that there are more than 5-10 openings a year for an Asia specialist.  Actually, you might get better advice here, if you could tell us your field.  You also talk about applying to "organizations" which I take it are non-academic.  It would be best to think of this as a whole separate application process with one set of materials for academic positions and another set for non-academic positions.  And never breathe a word about the application to non-academic positions in your application for academic ones. 

Finally, and I'm not quite sure what it is, but the wording of yor posts sends up all sorts of little "red flags" that I think might be of concern to search committees.  These might not be major things but on top of your non-traditional background might easily be enough to get your application materials shifted over into the "don't bother" pile.  I think this is a real danger for us expats.  We're used to seeing and talking about things a little differently.  And we're often a bit eccentric.  I'm not sure if that's because you have to be a bit eccentric to survive the expat life or whether that's what expat life does to you.  But it's important to be doubly sure that your application materials send just the right message.  You might want to have one of your letter writers have a look at your whole application package.

And just a final word: Be careful of what you wish for. 

[angel]

You do seem passionate about barring the entrance to the ivy halls to those of us with “lesser” academic backgrounds and I am sure we will never see eye to eye on this issue.

With respect, Ajarn, this is a mischaracterization of Avaya's posts. Just Dave's thoughtful and informative post said a lot of what I was planning to say, but better. Good luck, and congratulations on your fruitful prospects.

[ajarn]

Just Dave

Wow, great response and a whole lot for me to chew on and think over. Apparently, I am really out of touch. I never realized academia in the US was so, I am searching for a word, something that implies hierarchal, bureaucratic and different from the “real world.” Maybe the word I am looking for is “academic” :).

I left the US with only a high school diploma and created a new life abroad. Maybe I am so used to being an outsider, and because of this have not been required to conform, it is difficult for me to understand the politics of working in a more conventional environment.

Don’t get me wrong, “fit” is the key reason I have my current job, scholarly achievement and degrees mean less than the ability to relate with students  and staff from the local background when choosing international staff here. I love my current job, but as it is in a developing country, financial rewards and research opportunities are somewhat limited and it the time in my life to make my mark. But you make returning home to the USA sound like a nightmare. Is it really that bad? Are academics in the US really that narrow-minded? One of the key reasons I love my current job is I can completely ignore office politics (Since I am a foreigner) and as long as I teach well, everything is fine. I am way too old to play that game of backside smooching and pretending to have no personality of my own.

Again, I am surprised by what I have been reading on this forum in the last few days, I really would have expected more of this “old-fashioned” class-based attitude in European and Asian institutes. I am kind of used to that old American value of valuing what you can do higher than where you came from. Interesting how occupational culture varies so greatly within the same national culture. (sounds like a topic for a research paper)

There is no way I can compete head on with those who come from the American system in a contest based on benchmarks developed based on a single set of underlying assumptions of people having a single type of background, however I thought there might be some schools that would like to have some “diversity” on the staff.

The responses seem to indicate my chances at American universities are not so good; Which does answer the original question I posed.

Cheers

[larryc]

No one has given you an answer with a “old-fashioned class-based attitude." You keep mischaracterizing people who are trying to be helpful to you.

[just_dave]

...deeply suspision of anyone who didn't.

It's so annoying to goof up like this when one is "being wise."  Argh!

Seriously though, ajarn, you're reading a lot into my post that isn't there.  You really need to accept that all your overseas experience may not be as advantagous as you think.  You've also gotten used to (as many expats including myself have) not having to conform to local standards.  You're free precisely because you're a "foreigner."  But back in your home culture you can't expect anyone to cut you any slack.  You can bet that Thai academics don't have the freedoms you have.  That's one of the plusses of living the expat existence.  You don't quite fit in anywhere -- but neither do you HAVE to fit in anywhere.

In my 25 years overseas (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Mexico, Japan) I've done a lot, seen a lot, and grown a lot.  I'm certainly not that same person who took a job in Saudi all those years ago.  But I have to be honest with myself and admit that for each experience I've had overseas there's been some experience I've missed in the US.  With a full-time tenured position in Japan and a family to support, going back to the US to do the "poor grad student" thing just wasn't an option.  The UK program seemed like the next best thing.  But I fully admit that it was the NEXT BEST thing -- and not in fact the BEST THING.  But you do what you can in life.

[ajarn]

Just Dave

I think I understand what you are saying, and yes overseas experience does not appear to be an advantage (In the US academic system), from what I am reading (and have experienced) it seems like a disadvantage. I realize despite the rhetoric of globalization, Americans are pretty isolationist (its simple, geography) and don’t understand foreign experience very well, and it is usually easier to go with the known than the unknown.

Your point about being an outsider as an ex-pat is spot on, maybe this experience has spoiled me. I am used to a lot of freedom, and this is not something one gives up easily. What you seemed to be implying is one needs to know how to play to game in US universities and playing politics and being from a traditional academic background are important. I am not from a traditional academic background (I actually have worked outside of a university setting for a few years) and have little desire to play politics. Doesn’t sound like going “home” is an ideal situation for me from your description.

I take it you did your degree from the Open University? I have heard a lot of good things about the university and most Brits seem to have a pretty high opinion of degrees from there. Myself, wife, two kids, so the traditional PhD was a non-starter.  I thought about doing a degree locally, an Australian university was doing a joint DBA program, but in the end I decided to go with an online program. Sure, I knew my chances of ever teaching at Harvard were pretty slim with an online degree, but the program was fully accredited and I don’t think of my degree as my only, or even my most impressive qualification. But the academics I have worked with haven’t seemed to notice any deficiencies in my work or research (but most of them don’t know where I earned my degree, if they knew, maybe it would be different).   


Larryc

I was not implying anyone was giving me an answer with an attitude (ok, maybe I thought Avaya's answer was a little haughty), but the answers people have given me can be summed up as my background does not fit into what universities in the USA are looking for. It might not have been the answer I wanted to hear, but I appreciate the honesty. People seem to be telling me that Universities in the USA have an “old-fashioned class-based attitude.” Correct me if I interpreted the comments incorrectly, but it seems like I am being told that schools greatly prefer people with “traditional” academic backgrounds as opposed to those who have a wider range of experiences and did not have the opportunity to spend years without an income while studying. (I consider that an old-fashioned class-based attitude, you can use your own term if you don’t like mine). Fair enough, I might not think this is fair or correct, but if that is the attitude, it is good for me to know so I can plan accordingly.

My job hunting experiences have been that I seem to be attractive to foreign organizations and not US ones, and the answers here support that not being called for interviews at the places in the USA I have applied is not an anomaly. 

[just_dave]

I think I understand what you are saying, and yes overseas experience does not appear to be an advantage (In the US academic system), from what I am reading (and have experienced) it seems like a disadvantage.

That pretty well sums up my impressions at the moment.  I'm in the TESOL field (now primarily teaching theory and methodology rather than EFL classes) and you might imagine that extensive language teaching experience (either abroad or "at home") would be a prime requirement for any TT job in this field.  But I no longer believe that's the case. 

I take it you did your degree from the Open University?

My degree is from the University of York which had the strongest tradition in my research area of conversation analysis.  They also had close ties with UCLA which is perhaps the leading center for this sort of work.  It was through this connection that I was able to arrange to spend my sabbatical year at UCLA as a Visiting Scholar.  And THAT is as close to a traditional grad education as I ever came.  I sat through the classes, did the readings, and the assignments, wrangled a adjunct class at the local CSU, and networked with other grad students in my field, all that stuff.  All that very very VERY valuable stuff.  I wish I could have done my degree through UCLA -- no doubt I could have, if I had been willing or able to spend 10 years doing it part-time.  But that just wasn't on the cards.

I've also accepted that because my subject (TESOL) is really only taught at the graduate level my chances for employment in the US are much MUCH slimmer than they might be if I had a degree in a field that is universally taught at the undergrad level.  On the bright side, I'd say I'm pretty much on the top of the heap in terms of being hired for similar positions overseas so I don't stress at my current job too much.  If my current university folded I'm be employed again in a matter of months.