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[normative_]

Hi Everyone,

Can someone provide or direct me to information on the different academic staff positions in the Netherlands and the normal procedures/standards for promotion? I've answered an advert for a UD, equivalent apparently to a lectureship (assistant professorship in the US), and have been short-listed, but would want to set my sights on moving up sooner rather than later.

Thanks,

[donstefano]

It depends a bit.
Some universities have fully implemented a tenure track system, where a UD is evaluated after 5 or 6 years and then promoted to UHD (assoc.). Contrary to many other european countries, many dutch universities are generally using an up or out principle: as a result, quite many people leave university in their late 30s. The number of full prof ships is rather limited, so many quite senior ans established academics are assoc prof rather than full prof.
Becoming an assoc is not terrible hard if:
-you publish in american journals (yes, they are obsessed with american journals nowadays, so it's bes not to focus on typical european research topics...). This is especially the case when others in your dept don't
- there are not too many other UD's
So check out your future colleagues: if few of them publish in international journals (in some universities many don't, at other univ everyone does), then moving up to assoc should be fairly easy - univ are obsessed with thier rankings, so they love to have people who publish in top journals rather than just catering for the local market (but mind: the fatc that they only cater for the local market does not mean they are bad academics: it's really a choice between participating in the international academic market or being active nationally : many just don't have time to publis because in a small country they get asked all the time to advise ministers, to chair government bodies, or to comment in the media)
Also check out the number of assis vs assoc, and the number of years they have spent at the dept: When they have many assis prof who are at the dept for 3-4 years, they will all expect to move up soon, and the dept will be unlikly to promote you faster than them because this would create too many tensions, or because t would stimulate the other assis prof to seek promotion elsewhere.

[dante]

It depends entirely on the field, department, and university. In my field (humanities), there is just about zero mobility, and I have seen colleagues wait until their fifties for their first promotion, i.e. from UD to UHD. Unless the job advertisement specifically states that it is a tenure-track position, a job as UD can last forever, and many universities really have no "standard"  procedures for promotion. On the up side, a UD job can also be more or less a job for life, which means great freedom research-wise (but often heavy teaching loads). There is often a review after two years or so, but barring gross incompetence on your part, this is merely a formality. If you e-mail me privately and tell me what field and which university you applied at, I can probably give you more details -- Holland is such a small country that everyone pretty much knows what is going on everwhere else.

[normative_]

Thanks very much!

[tenured_in_holland]

I am relatively new to Holland, but got tenure after just one year.  I thought this was the norm.  Does this vary from university to university?

[outtahere]

Hi All,

I wanted to revive this thread as I am starting to explore positions in the Netherlands.  Could tenured_in_holland (or some other formite) possibly expand upon their experiences in Academia and adjusting to the environment?  In your experience, what is the worst (& best) parts to working and living in the Netherlands?

Thanks.

[tenured_in_holland]

Get used to bureaucracy on a scale you never thought possible.  It takes twice as long for anyone to decide anything, and then they still need permission from someone.

This is a male only club.  Females will never be full profs at my uni.

Dutch students feel very entitled, and will display displeasure with unbelievable candidness.

What further questions do you have?

[outtahere]

Thank you so much for response. I have a million questions.  But I'll spare you the list and just ask a few.

Get used to bureaucracy on a scale you never thought possible.  It takes twice as long for anyone to decide anything, and then they still need permission from someone.

Does this include obtaining equipment necessary for your research?

Dutch students feel very entitled, and will display displeasure with unbelievable candidness.

In what other ways (besides candidness) do Dutch students differ?  Are instructors only responsible for lecturing and designing exams or is it like the American system where you assign homework, quizzes, etc.?

I am relatively new to Holland, but got tenure after just one year.  I thought this was the norm.  Does this vary from university to university?

Did you have prior experience as an Assistant Professor?  Or a Postdoc?  Does it make a difference if you're in the sciences or humanities?

What type of departmental service obligations are there?

Is it true you could spend your entire career as a (tenured) assistant professor?

Forgive my naivete, your answers are appreciated.

[outtahere]

Oh, and most importantly, what is the balance between your individual research agenda and that of your group?

[normative_]

I might have some mild insights here from two interviews I've now had. The university expects about a 40/40/20 split in time between teaching, research and admin for a position at the UD level. I've been made an offer to start a position in the fall, and I can confirm that the bureaucracy is starting to show itself. The salary is fine, but is based on the collective agreement scales, as others have indicated here, and having it adjusted up a point took a couple of weeks of internal talks on the university side.

I've had a chance to talk with a few people who have come from the outside to work in the NL university system. Most seemed to like it, and the Germans in particular were impressed at how informal and practical their colleagues are.

The point made about difficulties or uncertainties in getting a promotion has confirmed itself as well, unfortunately. They've said that the university can only offer a UHD if the university's board decides there is a structural need for more senior staff (see again, decisions from above...)

[normative_]

Has anyone got experience with working in the Netherlands and having a spouse continue to live outside the country (in my case, in Germany)? I might have to commute on weekends for a while? I'm thinking of the bureaucratic side of things....

[normative_]

Let's see if anyone's still checking in here:

I've been offered a position at a Dutch university, and am looking for any practical tips readers may have that I should consider when negotiating salary, benefits etc. The original parameters of the offer are a UD position on the Schaal 12. It's for two years in the first instance, after which it's supposed to turn into a more permanent thing.

Room for movement? Special caveats?

[outtahere]

For that type of position, what exactly determines which Schaal you are on (11 vs. 12, for instance)?

[normative_]

Until yesterday, I thought I knew. Apparently, so they told me, they look at the number of academic years of experience teaching full time (which affects whether you're on grade scale 11 or 12), and the number of years since receiving the M.A. and then make an offer on the number of points on the relevant list. I've so far been able to negotiate my way a bit upward from the original offer, though. We haven't got around to talking about net pay and benefits. That will be the last phase. Then we'll go to contract.

I spoke yesterday, finally, to someone else who knew about how the position description compares with positions in other systems, which might help with the understanding of scale 11 or 12. Apparently, grade scales 11 and 12 for the UD are seen as equivalent of lecturer and senior lecturer in the UK system respectively; or (tenured) assistant professor (groan, again, but tenured) the UHD positions are apparently equivalent to Reader (or Associate).

[monsterx]

I've been offered at position in the NL at grade scale 11, 5.  The 5, I've been told, reflects the number of years since PhD  - but if that is really supposed to be since receiving the MA, then I've got some real upward room for negotiation.   

So it is possible to negotiate  on the basis of net pay - that would be very useful. They are telling me they can apply from the tax office for 30% of my salary tax free, which would make a big difference but is not a 100% certain thing. I could accept the job and then find out the net pay is alot less than I thought it would be on the basis of gross pay.