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beacon1
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« on: March 24, 2007, 11:54:01 PM »

Here is a thought that I have. To the relief of many of you, It will probably be my last post.

I think all social systems are built on power structures. There are big fish that eat big, and little fish that get the left overs. This is easily identifiable in India where the caste system is in place. The untouchables or pariah caste is the lowest of low, the down trodden. From the bottom, there are increasing levels of how much one gets to feed off the culture.

In our culture, the power structure was started by white males, and as a consequence, white males are still at the top of the food chain. It is intresting to note that some immigrants, despite being white, where not giving privilege for their race. In fact, Irish had a lower social status than slaves and were often asked to do jobs that slaves would not do. An example was the building of the New Orleans drainage canals and boat dock workers in New England. Both of theses occupations employed Irish because their deaths were not as great of a financial loss as slaves.

Something that is great about our culture is the idea of ascendancy - you can raise your social class. Ascendancy is slow through social classes, but it is possible. Ascendancy in our culture seeks no other goal than more MONEY. That is because our culture is capitalistic. Having more money, as seen in our culture, gives a person more value. Thats why most everyone is involved with keeping up with the Jones. We all want to be valued more. This is more than just a shallow undertaking, it is at the core of who we are. When the stock market crashed during the Great Depression, folks jumped from windows not because they had lost all their money and would not be able to make it, but the had lost their self worth. Culture gives us an deep sense of who we are and our intrinsic worth. Our culture is built on capitalism plain and simple. Money gives us esteem. Volumes could be written about this.

I believe race and gender does have something to do with why a person can not get more power (MONEY). The culture, particularly those at the top, have an investment in keeping things the way they are. It is more difficult for you to rise through the system if you are of particular races or female.

Once you have risen in the system, and you make a lot of cash, what do you do to ensure that things stay as they are? You support causes that do little to help others ascend. I think modern diversity is little more than throwing crumbs to peasants and saying "let them eat cake". If you make it to our Ivory Tower, by God, we'll open the doors and let you in. We will embrace your struggle and share the wealth. We all get rich, be happy and thumb our noses at the poor unfortunate hacks at the bottom. Then we'll beat the war drum and say it was angry white guys that oppressed you. We'll pit those at the bottom against each other and keep them fighting over race long enough that their chance at ascendancy will pass.

If you are really interested in diversity, encourage socio economic diversity as a criteria for university admission. Then pay the down troddens' way through school. This creates great opportunity for ascendancy.

In short, everyone wants a piece of the American pie. Is Cornell West really suffering because of his race now. Or John Edwards with his two Americas speech. Come on, its a classic bait and switch. These fat cats are making it big off the American Dream.

How bout you?
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larryc
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Eschew the hu.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2007, 12:26:41 AM »

Didn't you already make this post in your own thread?
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beacon1
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2007, 02:31:55 AM »

Quote
Didn't you already make this post in your own thread?

Yes. I thought it might be lost in the debate. I Really wanted comments.
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aardvark
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2007, 02:41:28 AM »



Once you have risen in the system, and you make a lot of cash, what do you do to ensure that things stay as they are? You support causes that do little to help others ascend. I think modern diversity is little more than throwing crumbs to peasants and saying "let them eat cake".

[...]


In short, everyone wants a piece of the American pie. Is Cornell West really suffering because of his race now. Or John Edwards with his two Americas speech. Come on, its a classic bait and switch. These fat cats are making it big off the American Dream.

How bout you?


Re: your first point that I've excerpted above, some on the Left have been making this argument for decades.  Marxists call it co-opting (and you can co-opt leaders of a social class as well as leaders of a race), and Malcolm X argued that giving a few prominent black leaders prominent Kennedy Administration jobs wasn't going to do anything to help the "black masses."

Re: your second point excerpted above, surely you don't interpret West's and Edwards's political position as claims that THEY PERSONALLY need some kind of help from the government?  If that's what you think, then I believe you're misunderstanding them.
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beacon1
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Posts: 402


« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2007, 02:59:42 AM »

Quote
Re: your second point excerpted above, surely you don't interpret West's and Edwards's political position as claims that THEY PERSONALLY need some kind of help from the government?  If that's what you think, then I believe you're misunderstanding them.

No. My point about West and Edwards is 1) they do not need assistance, 2) they are self intrested in maintaining their personal/political status, and 3) their so called solutions really bring discontent rather than opportunities for social ascendancy.

Bill Cosby IMO is a great spokeman for social ascendancy. Personal responsibility is key.
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aardvark
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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2007, 03:13:35 AM »

Quote
Re: your second point excerpted above, surely you don't interpret West's and Edwards's political position as claims that THEY PERSONALLY need some kind of help from the government?  If that's what you think, then I believe you're misunderstanding them.

No. My point about West and Edwards is 1) they do not need assistance, 2) they are self intrested in maintaining their personal/political status, and 3) their so called solutions really bring discontent rather than opportunities for social ascendancy.

Bill Cosby IMO is a great spokeman for social ascendancy. Personal responsibility is key.

So you don't believe that John Edwards actually believes what he says?  He hasn't figured out that a talented lawyer-turned-politician can attain personal/ political status on the Republican side, so he chooses his positions based on which ones will bring him power?  Just trying to follow here.

Cornell West claims that if he talks about personal responsibility he gets co-opted by the right, and if he talks about structural obstacles he gets co-opted by the left.  He's more nuanced than either of those positions.
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beacon1
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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2007, 03:41:35 AM »

Quote
So you don't believe that John Edwards actually believes what he says?  He hasn't figured out that a talented lawyer-turned-politician can attain personal/ political status on the Republican side, so he chooses his positions based on which ones will bring him power?  Just trying to follow here.

Absolutely! John Edwards lives in a 10000 square foot house and pays a 1000 a month electricity bill. He then says we live in a country of two Americas, one rich and one poor. Which does he belong to? I believe there is a story in the bible where a rich man approaches Jesus asking what he must do to receive salvation. Jesus tells him to sell all his possessions. You think John is ready to do that? I think not. The very nature of the word politician suggests that you say and do things that bring you power.

Quote
Cornell West claims that if he talks about personal responsibility he gets co-opted by the right, and if he talks about structural obstacles he gets co-opted by the left.  He's more nuanced than either of those positions.

He is a devoted socialist. Don't get much more left than that. So you say he doesn't talk about personal responsibility because of fear of being co-opted. If he is fearful of being co-opted, then he is only worried about his own political future which furthers my point.

Here is what I would suggest. The most extreme racism exist between those that can least afford to be racist. If the poor would ban together, perhaps extreme elitism would die in our culture.
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aardvark
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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2007, 04:28:53 AM »


He is a devoted socialist. Don't get much more left than that. So you say he doesn't talk about personal responsibility because of fear of being co-opted. If he is fearful of being co-opted, then he is only worried about his own political future which furthers my point.


That's not what co-opted means.  He's saying he doesn't want to have his position as an independent critic compromised by being hijacked by some political party.  Re: the structure/ individual responsibility dichotomy, he comes down firmly on the side of "both/ and."

Does West *have* a "political future"?  That's an interesting prospect you raise.
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beacon1
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Posts: 402


« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2007, 10:49:39 AM »

Quote
That's not what co-opted means.  He's saying he doesn't want to have his position as an independent critic compromised by being hijacked by some political party.  Re: the structure/ individual responsibility dichotomy, he comes down firmly on the side of "both/ and."

So what if a political party says the same thing he says? Why does this matter?

Quote
Does West *have* a "political future"?  That's an interesting prospect you raise.

Although not elected, he is a political figure. Do I think he has aspirations to run for office? The Green party wanted to endorse him. I am unsure what he wants. I just say his ideologies are more about supporting his lifestyle rather than achieving real change. Same thing with Anne Coulture, Rush Limbaug, etc. Anne Coulture can inflame and incite and who profits from it? Her books are flying off the shelf.
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acrimone
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I am not a professor at all, despite what I say.


« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2007, 11:32:08 AM »

Here is a thought that I have. To the relief of many of you, It will probably be my last post.

I think all social systems are built on power structures. There are big fish that eat big, and little fish that get the left overs. This is easily identifiable in India where the caste system is in place. The untouchables or pariah caste is the lowest of low, the down trodden. From the bottom, there are increasing levels of how much one gets to feed off the culture.

In our culture, the power structure was started by white males, and as a consequence, white males are still at the top of the food chain. It is intresting to note that some immigrants, despite being white, where not giving privilege for their race. In fact, Irish had a lower social status than slaves and were often asked to do jobs that slaves would not do. An example was the building of the New Orleans drainage canals and boat dock workers in New England. Both of theses occupations employed Irish because their deaths were not as great of a financial loss as slaves.

Something that is great about our culture is the idea of ascendancy - you can raise your social class. Ascendancy is slow through social classes, but it is possible. Ascendancy in our culture seeks no other goal than more MONEY. That is because our culture is capitalistic. Having more money, as seen in our culture, gives a person more value. Thats why most everyone is involved with keeping up with the Jones. We all want to be valued more. This is more than just a shallow undertaking, it is at the core of who we are. When the stock market crashed during the Great Depression, folks jumped from windows not because they had lost all their money and would not be able to make it, but the had lost their self worth. Culture gives us an deep sense of who we are and our intrinsic worth. Our culture is built on capitalism plain and simple. Money gives us esteem. Volumes could be written about this.

I believe race and gender does have something to do with why a person can not get more power (MONEY). The culture, particularly those at the top, have an investment in keeping things the way they are. It is more difficult for you to rise through the system if you are of particular races or female.

Once you have risen in the system, and you make a lot of cash, what do you do to ensure that things stay as they are? You support causes that do little to help others ascend. I think modern diversity is little more than throwing crumbs to peasants and saying "let them eat cake". If you make it to our Ivory Tower, by God, we'll open the doors and let you in. We will embrace your struggle and share the wealth. We all get rich, be happy and thumb our noses at the poor unfortunate hacks at the bottom. Then we'll beat the war drum and say it was angry white guys that oppressed you. We'll pit those at the bottom against each other and keep them fighting over race long enough that their chance at ascendancy will pass.

If you are really interested in diversity, encourage socio economic diversity as a criteria for university admission. Then pay the down troddens' way through school. This creates great opportunity for ascendancy.

In short, everyone wants a piece of the American pie. Is Cornell West really suffering because of his race now. Or John Edwards with his two Americas speech. Come on, its a classic bait and switch. These fat cats are making it big off the American Dream.

How bout you?

Since you say you want comments... I am happy to oblige.

I have three major problems with your post, although I agree with most of it.  Those three problems are, in no particular order:

1) Illiteracy.

Cornel West only has one "l" in it.

2) Oversimplification.

You say:

Our culture is built on capitalism plain and simple. Money gives us esteem. Volumes could be written about this.

But that's really a gross overstatement.  Our culture is built on a lot of things.  And let's say that you're even remotely right, that if we laid out all the things upon which our culture is based on a great big table, that capitalism and money make up a plurality of our cultural foundations... you're still ignoring a TON of other stuff.  Limit the scope of your grand, sweeping statements about culture a little.  It will help give you a little credibility.  You're complaining about a very particular part of a very rich, wide culture.  Get some perspective.  Speaking of perspective...

3) Lack of Perspective.

You say:

Once you have risen in the system, and you make a lot of cash, what do you do to ensure that things stay as they are? You support causes that do little to help others ascend. I think modern diversity is little more than throwing crumbs to peasants and saying "let them eat cake". If you make it to our Ivory Tower, by God, we'll open the doors and let you in. We will embrace your struggle and share the wealth. We all get rich, be happy and thumb our noses at the poor unfortunate hacks at the bottom. Then we'll beat the war drum and say it was angry white guys that oppressed you. We'll pit those at the bottom against each other and keep them fighting over race long enough that their chance at ascendancy will pass.

The thing is that life on the bottom has never been so good.  EVER.

Now, if you want to just go ahead and say "well there shouldn't be a bottom -- everyone should have anything they want or need" you're just an idiot.  If you say "well everyone should have all the necessities" you're just being juvenile, because you don't understand how fluid the definition of "necessity" has been over the last three thousand years.

If, on the other hand, what you are saying is that there needs to be more mobility and more opportunity... and that the power structures need to have fewer barriers to entry, well, I can see the merit in that argument. In theory.  In practice, I've got some problems with it.  It's interesting that you seem to think that those who have "ascended" in the power structure somehow have a moral obligation to help others do the same.  I'm not certain that's the case.  I don't "support causes" to help others ascend... but I do keep a lookout for those who might be struggling up the slope, and I do what I can to help them out on a case-by-case basis. 

That's what a lot of people don't really understand about the "power structures" in our society: they aren't really built on institutions, but on interpersonal relationships.  You don't ascend because someone puts a program in place where you can fill out Ascension Form AF-32, but rather because someone sees you on the way up and gives you a hand.  And then you help them out later.  And then you help their kids find a job, and they write a letter of recommendation for your kid, etc. etc.  You have to put yourself into the web of interdependence. 

For example, take a Senator.  A Senator doesn't wield as much power as most people think.  Senator Clinton, for instance, doesn't wield a great amount of power qua Hillary Clinton.  Instead, she serves as a focus for the interests of a large number of people: her contributing constituency.  Does she have some personal leeway?  Of course she does.  Does she have access to a great deal of economic opportunity?  Of course -- the Senate outperforms every single fund in existence.  But Senator Clinton lives her life as a tool of other people in the most literal sense: hours of every day are filled with listening to what the people who have put her there want her to get for them.  That's what Senators do.  And all those people who put her there have their own webs of interdependence.  Is it institutional?  Yes.  But more than that, it's very, very personal as well.

Do the institutions we have facilitate that sort of interpersonal back-scratching?  Yes, of course they do.  But that sort of back-scratching takes place even without those institutions.  Take a look at any communist country.  The difference is that in those systems, back-scratching isn't part of the official system, so it takes place on a much more arbitrary and capricious scale.

We all get rich and fat and happy by making sure that other people are getting fat and happy and in many cases, even richer than ourselves.  I purchased a home and filled it with nice furniture (something I never had imagined was possible as a kid) by selling myself out for hundreds of dollars per hour.  I personally saw a VERY, VERY small percentage of the money I earned in my legal career.   But I still made more money in a short period of time than I ever expected to make in my entire lifetime when I was growing up.  Did the partners at my firm get richer than me off my labor?  Of course they did.

But they also provided me with that job, and gave me a chance to ascend.  They offered a helping hand to me to improve my lot in life, in material terms.  They became my colleagues, people's whose names are still in my Rolodex today (the ones that are still alive).  I call them up and activate the "ascension-protection-device" when I have a legal problem that I can't handle on my own.  They call me up when their kids and grandkids need someone to talk to about school, or when they need an introduction to someone.  We play poker together, and drink together.

My point is a simple one: it's not really about institutions, but about people.  That means, to a certain extent, that it's going to be about family, too.  Gaining access to the right kind of people to "make it" in a material sense is very important, so I agree with you in the sense that you imply that gaining admission to universities (or, by proxy, to certain internships or activities) is important for advancing one's socioeconomic status.

But at the end of the day, it's still going to be my choice about whom I help up the slope and whom I do not.  Will that decision have to do with race and gender?  Yeah, sure.  Maybe.  Maybe I help out a girl because she's smokin' hot, and even though I'm married, I enjoy being around smokin' hot chicks.  Maybe I help out some poor Puerto Rican because we're both brown and he's got a similar story about getting stopped by the police.   But you know, a lot of white males helped me out despite the fact that I'm brown because I was (a) respectful, (b) talented, and (c) showed some promise and ambition.  They invested in me, just like they'd invest in a mining company.  And they hit a good vein -- not quite what they were hoping (I left the law as a full-time occupation) but they still have a valuable ally.  I'm an asset to them, just as they are an asset to me.

And that's the key: just admitting a bunch of poor people to a university won't do any good, because no one is going to want to talk and hang out with someone who is clearly ill-prepared for study.  For the love of God, the social and cultural shock is bad enough.  Do you really want to exacerbate it by admitting people who are less academically qualified?  You have to make sure that the people who get in are good-quality investments; it's not enough to just put poor people in a college and say "succeed."  It doesn't work like that.  You seem to be mistaking "credentialism" for the actual mechanics of social "ascension" as you put it.  It's not about the degree, but about the people.

You said you wanted comments.  There you are.
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"All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
beacon1
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Posts: 402


« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2007, 05:36:24 PM »

Quote
And that's the key: just admitting a bunch of poor people to a university won't do any good, because no one is going to want to talk and hang out with someone who is clearly ill-prepared for study.

I agree. What are the problems with primary education? My sense is we spend more on education than any country in the world and get the poorest results. Why? Perhaps the system is not working for those that need the most help.

Quote
1) Illiteracy.

I misspell Cornel and that makes me illiterate. Why the personal attack?

Quote
2) Oversimplification.

My quote...

Quote
Money gives us esteem. Volumes could be written about this.

This isn't an anthology of cultural anthropology,it's just a blog.

Quote
3) Lack of Perspective.

I don't disagree with what you have said about interpersonal relationships. I think you are right, that at the heart of it, it is all about how well one can "fit in" in a given social system. Some have been dealt bad cards from the beginning, and because of this never learned how to connect well with others. The demons of our society drugs, mental illness, disintigrated family structures etc. make it hard for someone to have the emotional capacity to succeed. My belief is that more can be done. Why does a Katrina have to happen before there is impetus to solve a long standing problem. I think it is the moral responsibility of those that "have made it" to make sure community efforts are made to give folks the right information, and not to provoke racial distrust etc.

Thanks for your comments. I will consider them.






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aardvark
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2007, 06:20:14 PM »

Quote
That's not what co-opted means.  He's saying he doesn't want to have his position as an independent critic compromised by being hijacked by some political party.  Re: the structure/ individual responsibility dichotomy, he comes down firmly on the side of "both/ and."

So what if a political party says the same thing he says? Why does this matter?


Speaking as a person who has had his (locally-published, locally-relevant, obscure) political opinions co-opted by people with whom I didn't agree, I'll just say it's not pleasant, and leave it at that.  In the case of someone like CW, who is actually famous and something of a "brand," I can see why he wouldn't want to become an unwitting "celebrity spokesperson" for views with which he doesn't agree.  But if your "why does this matter?" is a serious question, then find the interview via Google, read it, and then email the guy.  My ability to speak on his behalf is (obviously) limited, but I've given it a college try.

Now turning to more serious matters:  another week has begun.  It's Monday morning and time to get to work (after I check out what other conversations I've missed overnight, of course :) )
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acrimone
The Red Queen's Court Assassin
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I am not a professor at all, despite what I say.


« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2007, 08:39:18 PM »

Quote
And that's the key: just admitting a bunch of poor people to a university won't do any good, because no one is going to want to talk and hang out with someone who is clearly ill-prepared for study.

I agree. What are the problems with primary education? My sense is we spend more on education than any country in the world and get the poorest results. Why? Perhaps the system is not working for those that need the most help.

That may be true.  It may also be true that the system isn't working because of those that need the most help.  It may also be the case that the system is working just fine, and you don't like the system's teleology.

Quote
1) Illiteracy.

I misspell Cornel and that makes me illiterate. Why the personal attack?

Because you took the time to use him as an example.  I don't expect Joe Average on the street to know how to spell Professor West's name, but I do expect it from someone who is pontificating about him.  And it wasn't a personal attack -- I said that illiteracy was a problem with your post, not with you.

Quote
2) Oversimplification.

My quote...

Quote
Money gives us esteem. Volumes could be written about this.

This isn't an anthology of cultural anthropology,it's just a blog.

That still doesn't excuse saying that "X is Y, plain and simple" when in fact X is a lot more than Y, and it is neither plain nor simple.  Informality is not an excuse for inaccuracy.

Quote
3) Lack of Perspective.

I don't disagree with what you have said about interpersonal relationships. I think you are right, that at the heart of it, it is all about how well one can "fit in" in a given social system. Some have been dealt bad cards from the beginning, and because of this never learned how to connect well with others. The demons of our society drugs, mental illness, disintigrated family structures etc. make it hard for someone to have the emotional capacity to succeed. My belief is that more can be done. Why does a Katrina have to happen before there is impetus to solve a long standing problem. I think it is the moral responsibility of those that "have made it" to make sure community efforts are made to give folks the right information, and not to provoke racial distrust etc.

Thanks for your comments. I will consider them.

Well, let's make sure I'm making myself clear then.  There's three areas on which I think we don't quite see eye to eye.

First, this isn't about having the "emotional capacity" to succeed.  It's not about overcoming drugs and mental illness (although it may be about overcoming disintegrated family structures).  People who have to overcome those problems have a lot more to worry about than "ascending" in the power structure.  (I should also note that plenty of people in the higher echelons have those problems, too.)  First learn walk, then learn fly.  

Second, I question the efficacy of "community efforts...to give folks the right information, and not to provoke racial distrust "  Like I said before, it's not about information or even racial distrust so much as it is just about access and understanding how the power structures work.  That's not something that can be taught through a community program.  That's something that has to be experienced and lived.  Now if you mean to implement "community efforts" (whatever those are) designed to foster mentoring relationships, well... I've always viewed those types of programs with a little suspicion.  I'm not a missionary -- I don't go out into the unwashed masses looking for people to lift up.  And I certainly don't think that I or anyone else who may have worked their way "up" the social ladder that you've described has a moral obligation to do anything to help others "climb." I look for people who are looking to help themselves, who have already shown some initiative.  It's cheap virtue to say "the community needs to do something."  Things don't get done by "the community" putting forth "efforts."  Things like what you seem to want happen get done, and things like what you seem to think need fixing get improved, by individual people doing individual things.

Third, and perhaps most importantly, the social system you've described is not a moral system, and achieving material and economic success is not a moral end.  I have a moral obligation to help someone who is starving if the opportunity presents itself (and I give to the Salvation Army quite generously in that respect), or to help someone whose life is in danger when I can (from which I have, to my knowledge, never shirked).  I have a moral obligation to offer shelter to one of my friends when they need a place to stay.  (Conversely, I don't have a moral obligation to provide shelter to some displaced refugee in Somalia -- or if I do, you've defined moral obligation down so far as to render it meaningless.)  I have a moral obligation to provide an education to my students because I've taken that burden on, and if I take a special personal thrill in helping out those whose backgrounds are more materially deprived because that's how I grew up, well, I don't fool myself into thinking that makes me a better person.  I do it because it pleases me.

But I certainly don't have a moral obligation to help somebody get a nice house and a BMW just because that person happened to grow up poor.  
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beacon1
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Posts: 402


« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2007, 09:18:21 PM »

Quote
That still doesn't excuse saying that "X is Y, plain and simple" when in fact X is a lot more than Y, and it is neither plain nor simple.  Informality is not an excuse for inaccuracy.

It is not inaccurate to say x = y. and that is plain and simple x can = y with interplay of z, w, and a. But this blog was not about the interplay of z, w and a. It was about power in capitalistic culture which is PRIMARILY about money.

Cornel West was not used as a person to pontificate about no more than John Edwards was. Merely examples of people that, to me, seem to be hypocritical. I could have easily used George Bush, Hillary Clinton, Al Gore or others. People that talk about understanding the common populace but have very little in common.

Diversity is based on a moral system IMO. What other quantifiable justification is there? I'm just saying that if you are going to have moral systems in place, better to base it on socioeconomic ideas.

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acrimone
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I am not a professor at all, despite what I say.


« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2007, 09:44:26 PM »

OK, we're clearly talking past each other here.  So I'll offer a few more snarky comments because you're starting to annoy me, and then I shall retire from the field.

Quote
That still doesn't excuse saying that "X is Y, plain and simple" when in fact X is a lot more than Y, and it is neither plain nor simple.  Informality is not an excuse for inaccuracy.

It is not inaccurate to say x = y. and that is plain and simple x can = y with interplay of z, w, and a. But this blog was not about the interplay of z, w and a. It was about power in capitalistic culture which is PRIMARILY about money.

Hey, you said culture.  Not me.  If you wanted to limit your discussion just to the capitalist, economic aspects of culture, you should have avoided the big, sweeping phrases.  This post hoc ass-covering isn't very becoming.

Cornel West was not used as a person to pontificate about no more than John Edwards was. Merely examples of people that, to me, seem to be hypocritical. I could have easily used George Bush, Hillary Clinton, Al Gore or others. People that talk about understanding the common populace but have very little in common.

Whatever.  So your defense to using him as an example but not knowing how to spell his name is that you weren't technically "pontificating"?  Christ.

Diversity is based on a moral system IMO. What other quantifiable justification is there? I'm just saying that if you are going to have moral systems in place, better to base it on socioeconomic ideas.

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here.  I give up.
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"All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
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