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[tamina]

Hi Everyone -

I am in my second year on a TT job at an R1 institution. I have a doc student I advise who is currently in her fourth year and working on her dissertation proposal. She is a terrible writer and not a good researcher. She was dumped on me because her advisor left at the time I was starting my job. She is a nice enough person though.

The problem: She isn't making any progress on her dissertation proposal. I have a meeting with her soon to discuss this. Given her lack of progress, I would say she is not going to finish. Students have seven years to finish or they are kicked out. Last semester I told her to write one draft of any quality (just to get the thing drafted because she was doing nothing). Then, I told her we would work through the draft one section at a time making revisions along the way. It's been about three months and she hasn't done anything with the revisions which is all of three pages. In eight months she has written about 30 pages and revised nothing.

I've talked to her about how to manage her time, how much time she needs to devote to her proposal, setting up a schedule for her writing, etc...I've had her set due dates for herself which she then misses. She now takes up to a week to answer any emails from me regarding her proposal, and she used to answer them within a day.

So now we are having a meeting to discuss her progress and the fact that she is on track to not completing her degree. I've never had to deal with anything like this before. I am wondering if people have any advice they would care to share regarding having difficult conversations with doc students in this or similar situations. I am making a list of things to talk about at the meeting to use as a guide. Any other advice would be appreciated.

[larryc]

"Susan, let's face it, you are never going to finish.  What else are you interested in doing with your life?"

[bibliothecula]

Larryc is right on. Be blunt with her, and send her to the careers office to look for positions that don't require a PhD.

[zharkov]

You might try finding out what's blocking the student.  Maybe the student needs more frequent contact with you and more specific deliverables, etc. Maybe the student has deeper "stuff" like ADD or some other reason for what is sometimes called self-sabotaging behavior.  (About the later, counseling might be in order.)

[uboat_driver]

Hi Tamina --

Sorry to hear about your situation ... it's frustrating to have students foisted upon you.  I had the same thing happen when I started at my first TT job and it lead me to have a "I don't work with you unless I've had you in class" policy.

With your current situation, I agree with the previous posters that you need to have a frank discussion with the student about where she is and her chances of finishing.  Obviously you should be respectful, but being honest with her is really doing her a favor.  Some of my colleagues in grad school would have really benefitted from such a discussion.  It will either motivate her  to finish the PhD or start on a new track.

Good luck!!

[fiona]

It  sounds like you've already set specific dates for when things are due, and she hasn't met those deadlines.

You could spend a lot of time and energy counseling and talking-through, but unless you're attuned and skilled in doing that, it will be a waste of your time and energy. It also sounds like she's not academically worth salvaging. It sounds mean to say that, but many students are really not good enough to make it as teacher-scholars, which is what a Ph. D. is generally preparing them for.

You might suggest (if you haven't already) counseling and writing groups.

But my inclination (because I'm crabby) is to set deadlines and tell the student--Get this done by this deadline, or I'm no longer your advisor. I have a colleague who was fired by her dissertation advisor, got her act together later, and is terrific. Sometimes it's a matter of life timing, but you shouldn't be sacrificed to the stages in a student's life. Nor should you be spending your time on a lost cause.

The Fiona

[kaysixteen]

Cynicism rant on, condition reddoubleplusbeta:

The young woman is a product of the same culture that produced anthroid's plagiarist.  She probably assumes that she will be allowed to complete the dissertation at her leisure and with a quality level of her choosing.  The seven year deadline probably does not seem real to her, and she probably assumes lawyers could get that waived, too.  And the OP's dept. superiors, having stuck this very junior colleague with this doctoral cancerdate, well...

[new_maisy]

It really sounds like you've already done more than enough to try to help her.   She's in her fourth year of the doctoral program--she should have completed her dissertation proposal years ago.  In my doctoral program we had the same 7-year rule, but there were several students like this who had been in the program 10 years or more who were nowhere near completion. 

When you meet with her, you need to have a very frank conversation so you can find out what's going on with her.  Be blunt.  Make sure that she understands in no uncertain terms that you will fire her unless she gets her act together.  Maybe this is all she needs.  If she has a medical/ personal/ or family issue that's affecting her progress, then she should get help.   If this is the case, you could suggest that she take a leave of absence while she figures it out. 

[zarathustra]

Don't you have the option to gradually flunk her out?  At my doctoral institution, if we got 3 "unsatisfactory" semester reports in a row, we're out. It sounds like you've taken every other reasonable option and documented it.  Maybe if you cool out on the emails, flunk her at the end of the semester, and make the student come to you it might generate some results...or at least, take it off your mind and let you put your energies somewhere else.  I doubt if anyone would blame you.

[dr_crankypants]

To Maisy--actually, in many programs, people don't write a dissertation proposal until the fourth year.  We shouldn't assume that the student is years behind schedule. 

Tamina, I would try combining a blunt and kind approach.  I would probably try to say kindly, but firmly that she really has to get her proposal in, and that unless she does by X date, you cannot be her advisor anymore.  You're not "firing" her--you're giving her a choice.   

But I would probably also recommend to her that she get some kind of professional counseling.  It sounds to me as though there's something going on with her.  It may be some sort of perfectionism that makes her terrified of turning in "crap."  A counselor may be able to help her to deal with this and salvage her career. 

[marcus_welby]

Having taken a  long time to finish my own Ph.D and having regretted how long I took later, I think a rather pointed e-mail may be in order.  I got one of those from my supervisor and it certainly motivated me.

Basically, it indicated that while he/she was happy to supervise this would only continue to be the case if there were more substantial progress.  I took that e-mail seriously and did expedite matters.

You've made some effort to get the student on track.  In fact you have probably already gone the extra mile, considering that this was someone else's student to begin with.  Perhaps the end of this term (the end of April) would be a milepost/deadline for the proposal to be submitted and defended or for this supervision arrangement to be discontinued, at your request. 

Mix in a few words of encouragement.  Those also can mean a lot to a student who appears to have lost her confidence or at least lost sight of the task at hand.

[acrimone]

How does someone who can't write and can't research get into a PhD program in the first place?

I'm not saying that to hijack the thread... whatever it was that qualified her to be in this program in the first place will likely be part of the discussion that you need to have with her.

[tamina]

Thanks to everyone for their advice. I appreciate it, and it is helpful. I am meeting with her tomorrow, and will post an update on the situation.

I agree that I need to be blunt but in a somewhat nice manner. I wish I could fire her or at least set the parameters under which I would fire her, but that is not an option for me (I'll spare you the details).

I can start failing her. Part of my meeting with her is to explain that this is what will happen if she does not get her work done. Actually, we give incompletes at this stage of the game (though personally I think it should be an F that wouldn't sit well with the more senior faculty). With an F, you are automatically kicked out of the program. Incompletes turn to F's within a year and then you are kicked out. It's a rather lame system I think in relation to my problem here, but I'm not going to waste any energy trying to fight the system or cultural norms around this. Not worth it.

She just doesn't get it, and she needs a wake-up call. I just hate that it is happening, but I suppose it's par for the course in this job. When I called the meeting with her - and told her that it was to discuss her progress - she acted happy to hear from me. She emailed me and said she had a list of things she wanted to talk to me about - none of which were that she was going through a tough time or thinking about dropping out. I had to remind her that while there might be some time to address her questions, her questions were not the purpose of the meeting.


Ugh. And to answer how she got into the program???? I have no idea. I wasn't around when they admitted her. Someone did admit to me that she was a low-level applicant who shouldn't have been admitted (duh).

Thanks!

[yellowtractor]

Agreed to blunt-but-nice, agreed to wake-up call.  If there's any way you can position this conversation less in terms of opposition (I am the gatekeeper, you are not performing up to standards, beware) and more in terms of empathy (I know how difficult this is, let's discuss what's bothering you, let's also discuss career alternative options because at the present rate you're doomed here), you might succeed in motivating her without alienating her.

Certainly you should fail her under the circumstances, and certainly you should make it clear at this meeting that this is in the offing.  I would recommend a "we" approach, however--"this is unfortunate, how can we work through this?"  And let her volunteer solutions.  If she can't or won't volunteer solutions, then perhaps a more direct approach will become necessary.

In my graduate program, nobody wanted to have these sorts of conversations with students, including students like yours who were clearly underprepared and undermotivated for the dissertation.  The result was that many wandered in limbo for 5, 7, 10 years before either turning something in (which nobody wanted to fail--or even read--because that would simply mean more paperwork) or not.  Maybe I'm kidding myself, but I think you do your student, your department, and yourself a favor by intervening at this stage, even if it seems like a dispiriting chore.

[scotia]

I would recommend a "we" approach, however--"this is unfortunate, how can we work through this?"  And let her volunteer solutions.  If she can't or won't volunteer solutions, then perhaps a more direct approach will become necessary.

Whilst I broadly agree with Yellowtractor, I disagree on the 'we approach'. Certainly the student should be offered support if she has the will and the capability to get herself out of the situation, but she needs to understand that she is responsible for turning this situation around - whilst you can help and guide it is up to her to do the necessary work. I fear that if she hears 'any way that we can turn it around' she may end up placing the responsibility back on to you. I have learned the hard way to be clear with students that they are entirely responsible for their own destinies in these situations. I now take care to be clear that I will provide the expected levels of supervision, and help out when they need guidance, but that the students themselves must do the work.