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[philoctetes]

I'm finding this (and the other related) thread fascinating. I have no idea what my GRE, or for that matter SAT, scores might have been. I did my degree in Canada, where there were no standardized tests. Admissions were based on transcripts, statements, letters of reference, and the like. The hundreds of applications were whittled down on the basis of these criteria.

Hmmm... I recall sending GRE scores to Canadian universities when I applied to grad school...

Americans are often required to. I have never heard of any programmes in Canada that actually requires them of Canadians.

More evidence for Fish's theory!

Canadians do use GMATs and LSATs though.

Perhaps Fish's theory can be modified. He is probably right in his appraisal of what Canadian academics think are the reasons we do not need a GRE type test. That is I think that most Canadian academics think that they do not need an objective test for several reasons, e.g. that they know what a degree from different universities is worth and so on, I am not convinced that they are right. 

There is much truth to the fact that Canadian schools are much more homogeneous than American schools. This is partially due to the fact that accreditation process here is very different than it is in the US. However there have been changes in Ontario in particular (allowing secular schools the right to grant non-theology degrees) which has increased the amount of degree granting institutions and slowly the number of degree programmes that they are offering is increasing.

So the homogeneous nature of Canadian post-secondary education is changing. I predict that more and more Canadian schools are going to accept GREs, and suggest them for students from lesser known schools. After that soon we will see them required for certain programmes.

[trentsands]

Let's thicken the pot.  When my wife was looking at Lutheran seminaries, it was the Canadian seminary we considered that required the GRE, not the American ones.

[psychle]

I'm finding this (and the other related) thread fascinating. I have no idea what my GRE, or for that matter SAT, scores might have been. I did my degree in Canada, where there were no standardized tests. Admissions were based on transcripts, statements, letters of reference, and the like. The hundreds of applications were whittled down on the basis of these criteria.

Hmmm... I recall sending GRE scores to Canadian universities when I applied to grad school...

Americans are often required to. I have never heard of any programmes in Canada that actually requires them of Canadians.

This must be discipline-specific. Here are some quotes from psychology department web pages of various Canadian universities (with links):

University of Alberta: (from the FAQ) "Do I need to write the GRE subject exam? No; the GRE Psychology subject exam is not required. The three general exams (verbal, quantitative and analytical writing) are required."

University of British Columbia: "All applicants must take both the General and the Subject components of the Graduate Record Exam."

Dalhouse University: "Prospective students applying for a position in one of our graduate programs must submit: ... GRE scores"

University of Manitoba: "What is Needed to Apply? ... Scores on two components of the General Test (quantitative, and verbal) of the Graduate Record Examination."

McGill University: "All applicants must take the GRE if they have studied in an English speaking University."

University of Victoria: "Applicants must arrange for submission of...  Scores from the aptitude (verbal and quantitative) portion of the Graduate Record Examination (GRE)."

That's just a sampling.

[psychle]

(The third one in my last post should be "Dalhousie University.")

[helpful]

That's just Psych departments. In many other humanities, social science and education  departments the GRE is not required.

[fish_actuary]

This must be discipline-specific. Here are some quotes from psychology department web pages of various Canadian universities (with links):

I'm too lazy to do the quoting.
I took a quick look at several Canadian Biology/Zoology departments and I didn't see any departments requesting GRE scores, but I didn't do a comprehensive search either. I think in the sciences, the difference might partially be that advisers are looking for people to work on specific problems/grants. However, I only have direct experience as an undergrad student in Canada, and my understanding of how graduate school in Canada works might not be correct.

I wonder if part of the difference with the science end of things (or at least biology in Canada) is the smallness of the research community? Students applying for grad school have to get reference letters from professors, and their likely sources of letters are going to be from people who are working on similar topics to the potential advisor, so they know who's doing the recommending. This proved to be the case when I applied for my post-doc.

[psychle]

That's just Psych departments. In many other humanities, social science and education  departments the GRE is not required.

Yes, I only listed psychology departments. Philoctetes indicated that he/she had "never heard of any programmes in Canada that actually requires them [GRE scores] of Canadians" and I simply wanted to provide an example of a program that often does. However, I concede the possibility that this may not be the norm for other programs, hence my earlier statement that "this must be discipline-specific."

[psychle]

That said, I do agree with the basic ideas expressed in one of Philoctetes' earlier posts:

Perhaps Fish's theory can be modified. He is probably right in his appraisal of what Canadian academics think are the reasons we do not need a GRE type test. That is I think that most Canadian academics think that they do not need an objective test for several reasons, e.g. that they know what a degree from different universities is worth and so on, I am not convinced that they are right. 

There is much truth to the fact that Canadian schools are much more homogeneous than American schools. This is partially due to the fact that accreditation process here is very different than it is in the US. However there have been changes in Ontario in particular (allowing secular schools the right to grant non-theology degrees) which has increased the amount of degree granting institutions and slowly the number of degree programmes that they are offering is increasing.

So the homogeneous nature of Canadian post-secondary education is changing. I predict that more and more Canadian schools are going to accept GREs, and suggest them for students from lesser known schools. After that soon we will see them required for certain programmes.

[philoctetes]

That's just Psych departments. In many other humanities, social science and education  departments the GRE is not required.

Yes, I only listed psychology departments. Philoctetes indicated that he/she had "never heard of any programmes in Canada that actually requires them [GRE scores] of Canadians" and I simply wanted to provide an example of a program that often does. However, I concede the possibility that this may not be the norm for other programs, hence my earlier statement that "this must be discipline-specific."

Well, I guess I stand corrected. I knew that some programmes in my field required them from all American applicants. Perhaps it has to do with the number of applicants. Considering how many undergraduates major in psychology I cannot imagine how many applications through which they have to wade.

[eeniemeenie]

well I'm having trouble wading though the whole white child-bearing female graduate student = distracted loser argument: probably because I am one.

However, I'm coming down on the side of acrimone.  In the graduate program that I'm in, I think all of the students are very intelligent but only those who are able to produce good work quickly and under pressure make it through (that goes for both the program requirements and their mental health).  If you need extra time or an inordinate amount of preparation to do well on the GRE I don't think that graduate school is a good place for you no matter how much raw talent or preserverance you have.

[microbe_doc]

I started graduate school in 1998 after being a receptionist/office manager and stay at home mom for 16 years.  I don't remember the exact scores but I scored in the 93% for recent college graduates with my GRE scores.  I scored in the 33% on the Biology subject test.  I would like to point out that I did not do anything towards maintaining my knowledge base or verbal abilities besides read copiously of romance novels, mystery novels and science fiction novels.  I read no serious literature or anything that could conceivably have been part of any English, History or Science program.  The entire field of Molecular Biology was developed prior to my return to school and mostly after I left with my BS. 

I take good tests. I am particularly good at multiple choice tests with vocabulary that is outside the norm for most of the people I went to school with. 

I got through my PhD in just about 5 years with a lot of help and support from my adviser.  My children were not babies or toddlers but I was a single parent.  I don't know if I would have been admitted even with great GRE scores if they did not take into account other factors than grades and GRE scores, because my GPA as an undergrad was 2.95.  My Graduate Adviser told me that he argued for my admission because he felt that I was to stubborn to quit.  He was right and that is really what Graduate school was all about for me, not what I knew before, because everything I knew about biology was different by the time I got back.  It was about getting up every day and dealing with what had to be dealt with, learning and relearning what had to be learned and applying knowledge to daily problems.  The GRE really says nothing about those skills.