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[malingered]

...most posts on this thread (with notable exceptions, of course) have ignored what seems like an exceedingly simple and powerful fact...

I should have said "minimized" instead of "ignored." I realize that no one is "ignoring" the poster's happiness. But I do feel like many are minimizing the importance his statement of what makes him happy.

I should also probably own that my responses in this thread are doubtless affected by my emotional investment in the question.

As I have said before, I am currently in the process of applying to grad school. I came to this forum for advice about this process, and have mainly met with a lot of skepticism, both towards myself and towards other applicants. And, while I realize that this skepticism is part of the advice, I think it can go too far. Specifically, I think it has gone too far when the prevailing advice amounts to the supposition that no one, or almost no one, should go to grad school. And that is, in general, what I have taken from this thread. For really -- to reiterate my argument in condensed form -- who should go to graduate school if not this poster?

In any event, my apologies to anyone whom I may have offended with this.

[histgradstudent]

I think you have misunderstood me. I wasn't suggesting he forgo his dream or anything of the sort. If he has a strong enough inclination to go to grad school, he should be all means go. I was just advising him to be really sure that is what he wants. The prima facie case against pursuing an academic degree in the humanities is actually very strong. It is likely to take at least 5 years, cause some periods of extreme stress and at the end something like 50% of students get tenure track jobs. I don't think the OP is naive. He seems to get all of this, but I think he should think seriously about whether there are other things he could also get similar enjoyment and fufillment from doing.

I don't actually agree with acrimone. I don't see the point of waiting ten years. After all, the great advantage you and your fiance have now is that you are young and responsible only for each other. In ten years you may have additional responsibilities.

As for the last point, fewer people should pursue academic careers in the humanities. There are quite literally too many of them right now. It is an oversaturated market and telling everyone to go out there and pursue their dreams is not very realistic. Of course I'm not in much of a position to lecture on this subject. Here I am. However, I think many, though by no means all, prospective grad students would end up happier in the long run if they did find other dreams and pursued them.

Oh grow up.

But -- and I should have made this more clear -- I was, in the main, responding to histgradstudent's advice, which really was for the original poster to forego his dream, provided that there was something else he could imagine doing. No element of "still allowing him to do what he wants later in life" here; just the idea that he should give it up, unless he can't bring himself to do so. That, in my mind, is backwards, and that is what got my hackles up.

But I did say "you people." Why? Because most posts on this thread (with notable exceptions, of course) have ignored what seems like an exceedingly simple and powerful fact: the original poster's insight that this work makes him happy. That is something that needs to be listened to, and listened to carefully. Many people are not so fortunate as to ever have so lucid a view of themselves.

Again, I am not saying that this should be the only consideration. But I think it should a primary one. Given this, it would seem that there would need to be some very important counter-considerations to urge against his going to school now -- and that is what I have not heard in this thread. The only arguments I have heard against it are that going into academe is not very lucrative (and thus he ought to save for 7 years first -- acrimone's argument) and that it is hard to find a job in academe (and thus one ought to avoid going to grad school if one can -- histgrad's argument.)

Yes, those are prima facie perfectly legitimate considerations. But they are also perfectly general ones. That is, they are things that everyone should think about; but if they were in themselves sufficient to make the decision, then no one would go to grad school. And, as I have pointed out before, these considerations also apply to the current case less strongly than to most others because he has a good financial situation and a very deep, strong desire to pursue studies in his field, as well as the ability and credentials to succeed.

So, if "you people" are really convinced that this young man would do better to put off school for many years -- or forever, as the case may be -- I would urge you to come up with some reasons more specifically compelling than a general skepticism about the pragmatics of working in academe. In the meantime I will stick to the simple logic that if one has strong, specific reasons to do something and only relatively weak, general reasons not to do it, then he probably ought to do it.

[malingered]

Of course people applying to grad school should be aware of the difficulties ahead. And of course they should consider other alternatives (I actually started a thread on this subject a little while ago that was mostly ignored. Feel free to contribute: http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,33259.0.html). But do we really need the idea that going to grad school in the Humanties is a Very Bad Idea hammered home at every possible juncture?

I realize that the original poster was asking whether or not he should go to school. But if you really don't think he is naive about these general considerations, why not give more specifically tailored advice instead of repeating what we all already know, and have (however grimly) acknowledged?

And -- not to get too far off topic -- it does kind of rub me the wrong way to hear current students and faculty urging potential students away from the path they are travelling, or have travelled. You all had good, well thought-out reasons when you applied to grad school, right? So why assume that current applicants have no idea what they are getting themselves into? After all, if they are posting here, they probably have some decent idea of the realities of life in academe.

What ever happened to giving people the benefit of the doubt?

[case_insensitive]

After all, if they are posting here, they probably have some decent idea of the realities of life in academe.

Gee, I thought if they were asking the question here, then they'd want to know the realities...

Personally, I have never discouraged anyone from pursuing a PhD in my field.  I am not, however, in the humanities.

[malingered]

Gee, I thought if they were asking the question here, then they'd want to know the realities...

In many cases, yes. But this does not seem to be what the original poster was having problems with:

I am no fool.  I know that I would have to forgo 7 years (give or take) of income in order even to be eligible to be considered for a poorly-paying job in a random area of the country.  I’ve followed the job market for professors in my field for the past three years and I am fully aware of its limitations.  My fiancée and I would begin our thirties with very little in savings, an enormous debt burden from medical school, and in general an uphill financial road to climb before kids and mortgage payments become a reality.  We’d need to live like graduate students into our mid-thirties, at least, in order to be debt-free.

My point is that certain posters on this forum do seem to reflexively discourage potential applicants in the Humanities. To put it more kindly I would say that they are helpfully trying to point out what the practical difficulties are. And, again, that's legitimate. But I do think there is a point when it becomes discouraging, and even unhelpful.

And now I'm seriously going to shut up about all this. Financially Nervous: good luck on making your decision. Acrimone and histgradstudent: my apologies (one last time) if I have offended you or misinterpreted your comments. I really didn't want anything more than to be an encouraging voice in support of this young man's prerogative to make this decision based on other than just financial considerations.

[financially_nervous]

Thanks again to all for your replies.  I have continued to read them with the greatest interest.

If I am accepted to the MA program, my inclination at this point is to give it a shot.  If at the end of the MA program my thoughts have changed, I can always teach high school (demand for high school teachers in my field is reasonably strong).  While for a variety of reasons I would prefer to be a college professor, I am fairly certain that I would prefer any kind of teaching career to the business world that I've been exposed to. 

Heck, if after two years I have done a complete about-face and never wish to open another book related to what I've studied, I can always leave it all behind and go back to business or some other more lucrative career.  An investment of two years to do what I love seems prudent enough to me. 

If I am not accepted to the MA program, well, as I said, that simplifies the whole situation.

[case_insensitive]

Thanks again to all for your replies.  I have continued to read them with the greatest interest.

If I am accepted to the MA program, my inclination at this point is to give it a shot.  If at the end of the MA program my thoughts have changed, I can always teach high school (demand for high school teachers in my field is reasonably strong).  While for a variety of reasons I would prefer to be a college professor, I am fairly certain that I would prefer any kind of teaching career to the business world that I've been exposed to. 

Heck, if after two years I have done a complete about-face and never wish to open another book related to what I've studied, I can always leave it all behind and go back to business or some other more lucrative career.  An investment of two years to do what I love seems prudent enough to me. 

If I am not accepted to the MA program, well, as I said, that simplifies the whole situation.

Good luck, f_n!

[kd2972]

If I am accepted to the MA program, my inclination at this point is to give it a shot.  If at the end of the MA program my thoughts have changed, I can always teach high school (demand for high school teachers in my field is reasonably strong).  While for a variety of reasons I would prefer to be a college professor, I am fairly certain that I would prefer any kind of teaching career to the business world that I've been exposed to. 

With a MA, you could probably be a professor at a community college as well.

Also, I didn't closely read all the posts, and I can't remember if you specified your field.  However, with your scores and the potential to go to a top program, the job/pay situation after the Ph.D. may not be as dire as you think.  For example, I just interviewed for a position that the chair said will pay $52,000.  However, that is a 9-month salary.  With teaching or research grants in the summer, I would make over $60,000 my first year out of grad school (if I am so lucky to get the job).  Also, if you are in a field in which professors apply for grants, your salary could be considerably more than it appears.  For example, one of my mentors makes well over $200,000 (although hu is over 60 and is at a R1 university).  We are in about the lowest paid social science field.  If you graduate from a top program and are willing to move around to take the best jobs, your long-term job outcomes (financial and otherwise) might be better with the Ph.D., even though it will take a while to get there.

Good luck!

[alqahiri]

In the states, only go for a PhD if you're interested in academia. Otherwise it won't be helpful really.

An MA/MS is useful however due to the oversaturation of the market with BA/BS graduates. But of course this depends on your field of study.

[stangoldsmith]

go to grad school

have your wife do her residency in radiology

= starting salary of 350k a year

= 650k + after 3-4 years

= no debt, happy family

[acrimone]

go to grad school

have your wife do her residency in radiology

= starting salary of 350k a year

= 650k + after 3-4 years

= no debt, happy family

Which is great if the wife wants to do radiology.

[au_fait]

Thanks again to all for your replies.  I have continued to read them with the greatest interest.

If I am accepted to the MA program, my inclination at this point is to give it a shot.  If at the end of the MA program my thoughts have changed, I can always teach high school (demand for high school teachers in my field is reasonably strong).  While for a variety of reasons I would prefer to be a college professor, I am fairly certain that I would prefer any kind of teaching career to the business world that I've been exposed to. 

Heck, if after two years I have done a complete about-face and never wish to open another book related to what I've studied, I can always leave it all behind and go back to business or some other more lucrative career.  An investment of two years to do what I love seems prudent enough to me. 

If I am not accepted to the MA program, well, as I said, that simplifies the whole situation.

You'll probably need a teaching certificate or a M.Ed. to teach k-12. Check in the area you want to work.
MBA from what I've heard isn't challenging (when compared to other fields) and depending what you decide to focus your MA on, could create a dual threat--a great position for you to be in.

[malingered]

Which is great if the wife wants to do radiology.

It's because of sticky issues like these that I plan to marry an enchanted hen who will happily lay golden eggs all day. A little unconvential, yes, but such are the wages of academe these days.

[au_fait]

Which is great if the wife wants to do radiology.

It's because of sticky issues like these that I plan to marry an enchanted hen who will happily lay golden eggs all day. A little unconvential, yes, but such are the wages of academe these days.

What a great idea! We could get horses of a different color too.  :)