next »

[smurfette]

So I have an offer from a school that will expire in a few days. Another school worked really hard to work around that deadline and made me a verbal offer. Great. However, when the offer was made on the phone, no details were given (salary, start-up, etc), they just said something with the offer terms would arrive in writing. I was happy, but to me this is essentially no offer yet, because I had no clue if the terms would be reasonable.

Finally, they email me the offer. They match the first place's salary and moving stipend. But nothing is said about other important items that I'd discussed with them (like start-up-- very important to those in the sciences). I know that the specifics can be negotiated later (like if I want to try and get more start-up, etc), but shouldn't they at least tell me what they're willing to offer for starters so that I can compare the options? I feel like I'm missing some critical info here and am getting frustrated... 

[case_insensitive]

So I have an offer from a school that will expire in a few days. Another school worked really hard to work around that deadline and made me a verbal offer. Great. However, when the offer was made on the phone, no details were given (salary, start-up, etc), they just said something with the offer terms would arrive in writing. I was happy, but to me this is essentially no offer yet, because I had no clue if the terms would be reasonable.

Finally, they email me the offer. They match the first place's salary and moving stipend. But nothing is said about other important items that I'd discussed with them (like start-up-- very important to those in the sciences). I know that the specifics can be negotiated later (like if I want to try and get more start-up, etc), but shouldn't they at least tell me what they're willing to offer for starters so that I can compare the options? I feel like I'm missing some critical info here and am getting frustrated... 

Email the right person (SC chair? Dept head?) and ask for a time you can call and discuss the offer details. Call with a list well thought out ahead of time and go through it all and see if you can get some straight answers.

Good luck!

[stapler]

I don't know if this applies in your case, but some schools aren't able to provide all details at the time the official offer is made, even when things aren't being rushed. 

When I was hired at my present state university, I had to take it on faith that I would actually receive startup funds around the level I'd requested during my interview.  The contract I ended up signing actually said "Declined" under the startup section (this was extremely troubling to me at the time), because the following year's budget had not yet been finalized by the university (and thus startup funds could not be officially committed for any of the dozens of profs hired that season).  The whole situation was a paperwork issue more than anything, and the startup ended up being a little larger than I'd discussed with the chair.

Point is: a) it might be tough for many schools to provide the exact details you're looking for, especially if things are being rushed; and b) some schools (like mine) sometimes can't make a formal offer on things like startup if budgetary or admin issues get in the way.  This is not to say that you should treat verbal commitments with the same confidence as those in an actual contract, but rather that hiccups in the process do occur even when parties are acting in good faith.

Case_insensitive's advice sounds good - see if you can get things clarified by talking to the SC chair or dept head.  They may be able to reassure you in one way or another.

[yellowtractor]

I think this is one of those times that calls for being incredibly polite and yet also very firm.  No?

From your earlier posts, I gather this school knows your situation--in terms of a competing offer that will expire shortly.  I don't think it should be a problem at all to call (or e-mail and make an appointment to call) somebody (presumably the SC chair or department chair) to ask that these important issues be put into writing, if only into an e-mailed "memo of understanding," the details of which can be worked out later.

You can, of course, do this in a friendly way:

"Sorry to bother, but I was about to accept your very kind offer when I noticed that some of the things we discussed earlier aren't in your e-mail.  Some of these things--X, Y, Z--are very important to me.  Would it be too much to ask for you to put these in writing?

As you know, I have a competing offer from Plutonium College.  I'd like to get back to them with my regrets as soon as possible.  If you could confirm the above points of agreement, we can all move forward.

Thanks so much for working with my situation.  I am very excited about the prospect of joining the faculty at Argon University and look forward to hearing from you."

Something like this?

If they e-mailed the contract to you, I don't think it would be inappropriate to respond via e-mail, with a follow-up telephone call if you haven't heard back from them in, say, 24 hours.

[case_insensitive]

smurfette,

I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see how your job hunt works out and then your SO's matching thingie in the spring... PLEASE keep us posted!

case insensitive (who's been there, done that)

[smurfette]

Thanks! I had already immediately done what Yellowtractor said (maybe I was even firmer!). In response they told me that start-up is done separately, after I submit a budget, etc. I just don't have time to go through that and while I realize that I can negotiate the exact dollar amt later, I want to know that I will at least HAVE start-up and more or less what the school is willing to give.  The other place straight up said: we offer X amt for start-up. I realize that not all schools operate the same way, but at least I want someone to tell me if they are willing to offer 5k, 20k or 100k...

Sorry if I sound frustrated-- I am.  The other problem is that I no longer know who I am dealing with. The emails are all come from an admistrative assistant, copied to deans, the dept chair... Given that my other offer expires in 2 days, I need to speak to someone. Maybe I'll just email the chair and see what he says, since he's been helpful so far.

[case_insensitive]

Email and ask for a time to phone and talk to the SC chair... and NOT to the admin assistant.

You go girl!

[smurfette]

Done. The dept chair is who I've been dealing with (and who called with the offer). I asked him if I can call and speak to someone asap. It also complicates everything with me being on the west coast. Ugh!

It's not that I don't believe that they won't keep their verbal commitment. It's that they have not made a verbal commitment even, so I have no idea how to compare the offers.

[smurfette]

This is worse than I thought. And I have until Friday to decide between the schools. The Dean of Y did get back to me, no worries there. However, although the start-up is close enough in amt to X, there is a serious restriction on how I may use the funds.  Without giving too much away, I'll just say that a large portion of my research budget does not involve equipment and yet that is pretty much all I am allowed to use the start-up for. I do not do my research in the US, so you can imagine what my major expense is.  I explained my point of view, the dept chair tried to facilitate discussion on my behalf, but it didn't seem to work. He said that I can compete for internal funds to cover these other costs I need covered. It is so idiotic. It actually will waste the university's money, because I will end up spending all my start-up on equipment I don't need, just to use it. Maybe I should buy the equipment and sell it on e-bay just to fund the things I really need, ha ha! Just kidding.

I am not sure if X has a similar restriction (it never occurred to me), but I am finding out.

I wish I could say more and get opinions from other forumites in my field, but I can't without outing myself too much! 

At this point, I have not slept well in over a week and am seriously stressed. Maybe I need to start another thread! My husband just wants me to choose a job, any job, not realizing that since the probablity of us ending up geographically close is higher with Y, that is primarily why I am considering that place...

[case_insensitive]

This is worse than I thought. And I have until Friday to decide between the schools. The Dean of Y did get back to me, no worries there. However, although the start-up is close enough in amt to X, there is a serious restriction on how I may use the funds.  Without giving too much away, I'll just say that a large portion of my research budget does not involve equipment and yet that is pretty much all I am allowed to use the start-up for. I do not do my research in the US, so you can imagine what my major expense is.  I explained my point of view, the dept chair tried to facilitate discussion on my behalf, but it didn't seem to work. He said that I can compete for internal funds to cover these other costs I need covered. It is so idiotic. It actually will waste the university's money, because I will end up spending all my start-up on equipment I don't need, just to use it. Maybe I should buy the equipment and sell it on e-bay just to fund the things I really need, ha ha! Just kidding.

I am not sure if X has a similar restriction (it never occurred to me), but I am finding out.

I wish I could say more and get opinions from other forumites in my field, but I can't without outing myself too much! 

At this point, I have not slept well in over a week and am seriously stressed. Maybe I need to start another thread! My husband just wants me to choose a job, any job, not realizing that since the probablity of us ending up geographically close is higher with Y, that is primarily why I am considering that place...

Step One: Go to bed.

Step Two: Sleep 8 hours. Use drugs or wine if necessary to achieve sleep.

[drsyn]

  Without giving too much away, I'll just say that a large portion of my research budget does not involve equipment and yet that is pretty much all I am allowed to use the start-up for. I do not do my research in the US, so you can imagine what my major expense is.  ...

You can't do research with just capital equipment.  Capital equipment is an investment in the university, not you.

If you don't get the funds for students or consumables (seriously, i couldn't figure out what your expenses were from that email) how are you supposed to get research done?   

Been there, done that.

[nailman]

This is worse than I thought. And I have until Friday to decide between the schools. The Dean of Y did get back to me, no worries there. However, although the start-up is close enough in amt to X, there is a serious restriction on how I may use the funds.  Without giving too much away, I'll just say that a large portion of my research budget does not involve equipment and yet that is pretty much all I am allowed to use the start-up for. I do not do my research in the US, so you can imagine what my major expense is.  I explained my point of view, the dept chair tried to facilitate discussion on my behalf, but it didn't seem to work. He said that I can compete for internal funds to cover these other costs I need covered. It is so idiotic. It actually will waste the university's money, because I will end up spending all my start-up on equipment I don't need, just to use it. Maybe I should buy the equipment and sell it on e-bay just to fund the things I really need, ha ha! Just kidding.

I am not sure if X has a similar restriction (it never occurred to me), but I am finding out.

I wish I could say more and get opinions from other forumites in my field, but I can't without outing myself too much! 

Sounds like you need a large amount for travel expenses as part of your startup, if I'm reading this right, and they aren't giving it to you. Here's what I would do:
Step 1: Sleep.
Step 2: (It sounds like you're doing this): Find out whether your startup at X could be used for the travel you need.
Step 3: Contact the person with sufficient power at institution Y. Tell them that it is essential for you to have adequate travel funds as part of your startup; the only other option is that you use all of your startup for equipment and sell it on Ebay to pay for your travel (you can leave out the part about Ebay if you like). Tell them that you have an offer from another institution on which you must decide by Friday which is providing you (if this is true) with adequate startup funds for travel, and that unless they can work to accomodate you, you will probably take the position with that other institution.
Step 4: Wait until Friday for them to decide, then put in another call to check with them. If they say "No dice" or "We need more time..." then they've made your decision for you and you take the job with X.

Overall summary: You are in the position of power here with respect to Y. You can let them know you would really prefer to go there -- but that you will be compelled to take the position at X if they can't meet your real research needs. See if they will make things work.

In my opinion, it would be foolish to take the position at Y if they aren't going to give you what you need, just to be near your husband, since you'd be almost guaranteeing your failure by doing so (I'm assuming that you really do need this particular startup money as much as you've said, which doesn't seem farfetched to me) -- unless you and your husband decide you want to just take something temporary that probably won't work out and go back on the market soon, which doesn't sound like what you've been saying all along.

Related story: Had an on-campus interview last year at a place I really liked geographically and I would have been really tempted by the job. But they wouldn't have provided anywhere near what I would have needed for startup. In retrospect, I am really glad I was not offered the position -- I would have been tempted to take it, but would have been setting myself up for failure. Moral of the story: If an institution can't provide you with the resources you will need to succeed, yet you are committed to succeeding in academia (even if it means not being in your preferred geographic area -- i.e. near your husband) don't take it.

[sibyl]

What nailman said.  It's not a comparable offer -- or, rather, it's not a good enough offer, since X is offering you $M for all of your expenses and Y is offering you $M (or even $M+1000) for equipment only.  Explain, nicely, to Dean Y that if you can't be sure of the funding for your research that you won't be able to bring distinction to the university, which Dean Y clearly wants.  Say you'd be willing to exchange some of the equipment money for travel.  Be flexible about how it works, but firm -- you can't do the research unless you travel, so if they don't give you travel you aren't getting research funds.

You know you need sleep, so I'm not going to say that.  Instead I'll say that these are complicated and important decisions, so don't feel guilty about diverting time and energy to them.  These are exactly the kind of life-altering decisions that are supposed to be stressful.  So *use* that insomnia for good.  Make lists, lots of lists.   Do lots of research about the prospective communities; you may find some obscure datum that will trigger a decision on other grounds.  Read lots of books about how to make good decisions and about how to negotiate (though Zharkov has recommended Getting to Yes so many times I'm starting to believe that I've already read it).  Go for brisk walks, by yourself or with your spouse or some other friend, so you can clarify your thoughts (or escape them for a while).  Pray.  Write long posts on these fora.

[smurfette]

Thanks! I've essentially done what nailman and sybil said, but I can't go higher than the Dean of Y. I've made a final plea to him and explained that essentially I need the start-up to be used for travel and be a successful scholar (To be fair, all faculty do get a small travel stipend every year, but that would not be enough for me).  The problem is that he is out of town until next week-- I can't believe my "luck"... Meanwhile, though, I am getting hints from X that they may have similar restrictions on their funds. If that's the case, then I actually think I have a better shot at changing someone's mind at Y because I've talked to multiple people there and have made my case. I can't even imagine going through the same pleading all over again with another institution.  My point is that I can turn down X on Friday but I still about 10 days to officially accept Y, so I can keep pressing Y.

And I did sleep a bit better last night, thanks for suggesting that :)