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[carebearstare]

For those interested in trans rights issues, I really recommend checking out the Sylvia Rivera Law Project. www.srlp.org. From their mission statement:

Two of our largest current campaigns are to change birth certificate sex designation procedures, so that it will be easier for transgender people to access identity documentation that reflects our current gender, and to oppose the closing of separate housing for gay and trans inmates on Riker's Island.

I know they've also worked on restroom issues, lockerrooms in schools, that kind of thing.

For more info on people who are born intersexed (formerly called hermaphroditic) check out The Intersex Society of North America (http://www.isna.org/). The medical establishment uniformly agreed until recently to change children born with ambiguous genitalia to one or the other. Now there have been questions about that, claiming that children should be able to choose their gender (or choose none) when they get older. This is also part of the trans rights movement.

[sockgumbee]

Beacon1,

The reason why Jonsey recommended some reading is that you don't really understand how complex the issue is. For instance some people are born genetically XY but are physically female. Some people are born genetically XX but physically male. And as some one mentioned earlier they may be a small percentage of the population but they are "God's children too".

One of the problems with random sexual assignment for folks born with hermaphroditic parts or somewhat indeterminate or underdeveloped parts is that no one as an outsider can know what sex/gender a person will identify as as they develop and grow into an adult. There are stories or trauma of people being assigned genders/sexes that did not match their sense of themselves. Everyone should have that choice--just as you did Beacon1--as The_Scene states. Great resources The_Scene, thanks

The clothing analogy is just silly. While there are pieces of clothing that are culturally gendered, what is acceptable for one or the other sex or gender has changed so much in the West that I can't understand how someone could feel strongly that there is just 'male' and just 'female' clothing. Jesus did not wear pants, he wore something more related to modern dresses.

For whatever reason I have had contact with three different transgendered people in the last year shopping. One owns a shop I go to about once a month--this person--not sure if they identify as male or female is great answers my questions, has good products, is pleasant to talk to. One of the other people was someone who was selling stuff on Craigslist--she was fine--but I didn't like what she was selling.

It seems like the rights are pretty basic--the right to dress the way they would like--within dress codes if there is one, the right to not be personally harassed, and the responsibility to do their job just like anyone else. I don't know why anything more than that matters.

[bewildered]

This never happens...

And you don't exist, so I win.  See, two can play at the "make up stuff" game.

[nephele]

Hello all,

Never posted here, always planned on lurking.  However, this issue is near to my heart and I wanted to attempt to answer bewildered's question about what rights transsexual individuals need.  Please note that I'm not all that up on the latest issues so this list is by no means definitive.

1. Job discrimination
2. Housing discrimination
3. The bathroom/gym locker thing
4. The plain old gym thing (Ever been told you weren't welcome in the pool because of your body?)
5. Birth certificate gender and name change
6. Marriage (I don't know if this has been addressed by the courts. Perhaps someone else has the answer.)
    To illustrate, say a person goes from male to female, changes their birth certificate and other official documentation, goes through surgery.     
     Now since it's illegal (in most states) for members of the same gender to marry, can this MTF person marry a male or a female?  What if she
     was married before the gender change?  Is her marriage to a woman is now invalidated?
7. I read the bit from the_scene about the change in Riker's Island housing of gay and trans individuals.  This never occurred to me but if I were trans I would be scared out of my wits to go into general population.

Thanks for the links, the_scene.

Nephele

--salt mist

[al_wallace]

Beacon1 mentioned that anyone that wants to cut off their genitals has to be insane. Most American parents historically have had part of their son's genitals cut off putatively for reasons of cleanliness (a reason with dubious scientific support). Does this make parents of circumcised boys insane and sexual perverts? One culture's tradition is another's genital mutilation. Cultural relativism does rule here but there is a great case to be made for biological relativism as well. One could argue that within Homo sapiens, sex may be much closer to a continuum than social norms will allow. Scientists often fixate on the statistical differences. The statistical overlap between the sexes with respect to behavior and/or morphology are famously ignored. Let's face it. It's hard to publish a paper claiming that men and women are the same. Indeed, from a developmental standpoint, and at the right point and time, men and women are very much the same.

If you step outside of Homo sapiens (for the REAL DIVERSITY enthusiasts) you will see that sex is a continuum, not a dichotomy for the majority of animal taxa (i.e. there is fantastic variation in sex). Since we are so provincial in our thinking that vertebrates constitute the majority of animals (they don't, but rather constitute a mere 5% of all animals), we tend to use vertebrates as some sort of biological norm. They aren't.

I wish I could wax poetic about animal sex, but just to give a few examples---

Slime molds have 13 or more different "sexes" rather than the provincial "two" we have.

Well over 1000 species are capable of changing their sex from male to female or female to male-often at the drop of the hat, and in many cases, can revert back to the former sex.

Some sexes (usually male, but occasionally female) are essentially internal or external parasites of the other (I'm thinking of blood flukes, deep sea angler fish, some species of barnacle, and a few echiurian worms here, but there are many more) which makes one sex a functional hermaphrodite as it incorporates the other sex into it.

Many species are sexless for most of their lives until a specific environmental cue is present and then "decide".

Sex is temperature dependent in some reptiles

Many species lack males altogether and only produce them occasionally (like Rotifers).

Female Hymenoptera (bees, ants, wasps etc.) determine sex by deciding whether or not to use sperm to fertilize the egg. If it is unfertilized, it is male, and if it is fertilized it is female.


Check out Joan Roughgarden's book "Darwin's Rainbow" for a great wander through sexual diversity.

If we rely on nature to claim what is "natural" or "perverted" we will quickly discover that most living things have way freakier sex than humans. Just pick up an invertebrate biology textbook if you don't believe me, but if you don't have the time, just check out a photo of a female spotted hyena. They are easy to sex, because their clitoris is larger than a penis.

[minnesotan]

Beacon1 mentioned that anyone that wants to cut off their genitals has to be insane. Most American parents historically have had part of their son's genitals cut off putatively for reasons of cleanliness (a reason with dubious scientific support). Does this make parents of circumcised boys insane and sexual perverts?

Yes.  I'm surprised so few people are up in arms about this.  We do it to babies because they can't fight back.  Ask an adult if you can cut off part of his or her genitalia, and you'll see what kind of reception this idea gets!

[zoe_brain]

Your right, I can't wrap my head around it...  I don't want my children attending school with a transgendered person teaching a class.

That is of course, your choice. Many people don't. Many people don't want Blacks teaching either, or Catholics, or Jews.

Maybe the following articles will help. Summary : male brain in female body, or the reverse.

Male-to-female transsexuals show sex-atypical hypothalamus activation when smelling odorous steroids. by Berglund et al Cerebral Cortex 2008 18(8):1900-1908;

    ...the data implicate that transsexuality may be associated with sex-atypical physiological responses in specific hypothalamic circuits, possibly as a consequence of a variant neuronal differentiation.

Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041

    The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.

Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relevance for gender identity, transsexualism and sexual orientation. Swaab Gynecol Endocrinol (2004) 19:301–312.

    Solid evidence for the importance of postnatal social factors is lacking. In the human brain, structural diferences have been described that seem to be related to gender identity and sexual orientation.

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

    Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones

A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity. by Garcia-Falgueras et al Brain. 2008 Dec;131(Pt 12):3132-46.

 

   We propose that the sex reversal of the INAH3 in transsexual people is at least partly a marker of an early atypical sexual differentiation of the brain and that the changes in INAH3 and the BSTc may belong to a complex network that may structurally and functionally be related to gender identity.

fMRT zur Diagnose bei Transsexualität geprüft Ärzte Zeitung, 30.05.2006

    So würden bei Männern das limbische System und dort vor allem Regionen im Hypothalamus, in den Mandelkernen und im Inselkortex wesentlich stärker aktiviert. "Diese Vorbefunde konnten wir beim Vergleich der heterosexuellen Männer und Frauen unserer Kohorte bestätigen", sagte Gizewski.

    Bei den transsexuellen Männern gab es diese spezifisch männliche Aktivierung des limbischen Systems nicht. Die mit der fMRT erzeugten Bilder entsprachen vielmehr exakt denen der weiblichen Probanden.

    Die Radiologen können also das, was die transsexuellen Männer angeben - daß sie sich nämlich "wie im falschen Körper" fühlen - anhand der Aktivierung des Gehirns auf erotische Stimuli bestätigen. Es gibt offenbar ein biologisches Korrelat des subjektiven Befunds.

Translation:

    In men, the limbic system and upper regions of the hypothalamus, the amygdalae and the insular cortex were activated substantially more strongly. "We confirmed this finding in the comparison between the heterosexual men and women of our Cohort", said Gizewski.

    This specifically male activation of the limbic system was not found in the transsexual sample. Under fMRT, the pictures corresponded rather accurately to those of the female sample.

    Radiologists can now confirm what transsexuals report - that they feel "trapped in the wrong body" - on the basis of the activation of the brain when presented with erotic stimuli. There is obviously a biological correlation with the subjective feelings.

[zoe_brain]

See also Professor Emerita Lynn Conway's page.

Also, please look up "Intersex". There's far more people than is commonly realised who are neither 100% male nor 100% female when it comes to their bodies. About 1 in 60, in fact. Only about 1 in 1000 show obvious symptoms though.

[williamcapragrough]

See also Professor Emerita Lynn Conway's page.

Also, please look up "Intersex". There's far more people than is commonly realised who are neither 100% male nor 100% female when it comes to their bodies. About 1 in 60, in fact. Only about 1 in 1000 show obvious symptoms though.

Zoe - I'm using my sock puppet so I don't keep this thread on my "new replies" list.  Nothing wrong with anything you wrote.  BUT, you are responding to a thread that has been inactive for almost a year, and to a "person" who has not been on the fora for even longer.  Stop by the Welcome to the Fora thread, say hello, and look for more recent threads on which you may share your obviously educated opinion.

[drannmaria]

I knew an Academic Dean at a college in a rural community. When I met him, I thought he was gay, but his best friend, also a good friend of mine, swore he was not, they were in the military together, the dean was married, had a child, etc.

One day, the dean decides to become a woman, starts wearing women's clothes, changes his name, etc. I told my friend, "This is not going  to fly in a small town. He is going to get fired."

My friend disagreed, said he had tenure, it was illegal, etc. etc. The college did not say anything officially, no one objected when John became Mary, but within a year or so, his position was eliminated and he was out of a job.

I guess there is a happy ending, he is out of academia now and says he/ she is happy with life.

[fball]

Here in Idaho a city just added transsexual protection to equal opportunity hiring clauses.  Big win for LGBT...

[swann]

Here in Idaho a city just added transsexual protection to equal opportunity hiring clauses.  Big win for LGBT...

What I don't understand is how transgenderism has become a liberal cause among academics and how conservatives feel so threatened by it.  Doesn't transgenderism illustrate more clearly than anything else how strongly traditional sexual norms determine our desire and behavior?  Is it a coincidence that transgenders I have met typically act out the gender stereotypes more eagerly and rigidly than (biological) men and women?

I found myself nodding reading a comment Sock Puppet made a few pages back, something to the effect that liberal academics' championing of fringe issues undercuts their authority when they need to educate the public on really important issues--like climate change.  Every time someone makes this line of argument, some childish liberal responds saying "It's not zero sum; we should support both transgenderism and XXX (more socially significant problems)."  This is of course ridiculous: our energy, time and symbolic capital are finite.  It's only prudent to pick fight carefully.

I'm curious to know whether academics' flight from "hard" issues to "soft" issues reflects their sense of impotence on social matters.

[systeme_d_]

I'm not at all on board with your argument, Swann, but I would like to observe that your experiences with transpersons may indeed have been atypical.

My partner is trans, and could hardly be described as enacting rigid gender stereotypes.  Very far from that, actually.

I would have to say the same for the vast majority of our trans friends.

[onion]

Swann, what you are doing is "ranking oppressions", essentially.  Who is to say that the oppression and violence against transgendered people is somehow "less important" than something else?  I don't think it's at all a "soft"  battle; it's actually quite bound up with feminism and queer liberation.  (See: Judith Butler, Undoing Gender)

Moreover, who is this "we" that you are positing?  "We" academics?  I don't think of academics as a "we" group when I think about my political activism, and most of my activism has taken place outside of the academy and there was never another academic in sight.

In any event, we all pick our battles.  And I surely hope that you are out there fighting for that noble cause of your choice.  Otherwise, you would not only be a bit ignorant of an entire field of social justice studies and struggles, but also a hypocrite.

[kedves]

I'd like to see notes from someone trained in the observation and analysis of gender performance  before agreeing that the transgender people you know are stereotypical in how they do gender--more than your say-so.  That just doesn't sound accurate to me as an overall description in any way, including as a description of how my typical, non-transgender college student does gender.  Many of them do it all-out.  Are they not stereotypical because it is expected?

A lot of what you are saying is puzzling.
Honestly, you really can not understand why liberal politics might take up the cause of protecting a group of people in need of protection?  I thought that was the "liberal" part of "liberal democracy," protection of the individual from the majority or some part of the majority acting through government.
More socially significant for whom?  Rights for some are rights for all.
"Hard" and "soft" issues?  Impotence?  That's sexual, but not in a good way--a weird way--and doesn't communicate anything to me.