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[greggory1906]

I have been reading the replies about on-line programs with great interest.  I must admit that I was a traditional student, earning my undergraduate and grad degrees at
traditional universities.  However, I am now on tenure track at a research university
where the amount of faculty with doctorates from elite universities is amazing.  I believe that it might be nice to have faculty from on line programs teaching at my university.
This way we might have professors who can relate to a diverse mixture of students.

I may even consider doing another doctorate on-line, in a different field.  And I expect my experiences to be the same as were in my traditional, face to face doctoral program.

[twofish]

One project that I've been working on and off on is to work on an undergraduate physics degree that has

accreditation from TESC/Charter Oak
courseware from MIT
social networks from wikiversity/wikipedia
practical training from NSF REU

The big problem is that I don't know who in TESC or Charter Oak to talk to about this.

I'm also trying to turn wikiversity into something of an online hub for internet scholars

http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:Roadrunner

The theory is that if you try to do serious things online, you attract serious people....

[ilisker]

This month (01/2007), the Chronicle of Higher Education posted an article called “Employers Often Distrust Online Degrees” By Dan Carnevale. I did not like the title of the article to begin with, and when I took a closer look at the content, I did not like the title even more. The article is based on the report from Vault Inc., which said that 55% of managers would prefer applicants with traditional degrees over the online degrees and 45% of managers would give both an equal consideration.

Although the numbers are not really surprising and I would say actually encouraging considering that online academic programs are still a relatively new idea in education, my concern was that those who are not comfortable with this idea to begin with will take it as a supporting argument and those who know little about online education will form a what I believe wrong opinion.

Overall, the article actually clearly explains that skepticism about online degrees comes primarily from ignorance about online education and about what it takes to earn an online degree or participate in online education in some other forms. The article also mentioned that the perception about online education has little to do with the reality of online education but more with the skeptics’ preconceived ideas.

An interesting “discovery” mentioned in the article is that such managers only react to online degrees when the degree is from the school known as a provider of online education (Capella and University of Phoenix were stated as examples by some of the skeptics). The fact is that many traditional universities, including California State University, Long Beach where I teach, offer online degrees which are never identified as such on the students’ final transcript and for a good reason—such programs adhere to the exact same if not more stringent quality control and academic standards as any other traditional programs taught in such schools.

The two hiring managers mentioned to illustrate the skepticism about online degrees were Jerry Ervin, the president of Paragon Strategies, and Silvia Guzman, the human resources manager from ProTec Building Services (both companies are in California—hmm, is this a coincidence?). Well, when I decided to dig in a little and to try to find out about these two skeptics’ own educational background, I found an interesting picture. Both are listed on their companies' websites among other key people; I also found Guzman’s information on the National Human Resources Association, where she is a board member. Now, here is what was interesting—neither had any information about their educational background mentioned in their bios; although when you look through the bios of other members listed on these sites, many stated their educational background and degree very clearly—so my impression was that those with the degrees did include their academic background in their bios, those who did not have a degree did not.

Another interesting piece of information, I thought, was that the president of the National Human Resources Association where Guzman is a member stated very proudly (well it is my interpretation, of course) her BS in Business Management from University of Phoenix, one of the schools that Guzman said she would hesitate to hire a person from.

So, the question I pose here is this:
Is there any relationship between educational background of the hiring managers and their acceptance of online degree? My hunch is that many of such critics—hiring managers-- not only have no clue about online education, but there is probably some hints of personal and/or professional insecurity about making hiring decisions based on people’s educational background. If these managers would, as they mentioned in survey, and probably do screen people out when they see what they call “red flag” of online degree—maybe it’s time for the companies to put their hiring managers through some online education training so that they know how much effort and self-discipline it takes to learn online. It was also significant to read in the same article that such companies as Johnson & Johnson are supportive of online education, as evident from J&J’s partnership with Capella University for employee tuition reimbursement and tuition discount program.
And as a credibility statement I must say that I earned my Ph.D. from Capella, which I consider one of the most rewarding and stimulating academic experiences in my life…but before you doubt my objectivity (actually I do not even try to conceal my support for online education), I also need to mention that I have an M.B.A. from University of California, Irvine, and BS in Psychology from University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign---you can’t get more traditional than the last two:-).

[zharkov]

Let me just as my brief agreement about the problem between the article's title and the data is presents.  I got the feeling the writers really wanted to write about how employers disdain online degrees, but most actually are OK with the idea.

My gut feel also says that those employers who are hesitant about accepting online degree are not familiar with what online learning entails.

[twofish]

One has to be careful to make a distinction between hiring managers and human resources as well as between hiring managers and senior managers. 

In most high tech companies, HR and senior management actually has very little control over who gets hired so what they think can be of very little significance.

[loren_wingblade]

My humble view is that on-line degrees are great if you already have a degree from a traditional school (the bricks and mortar kind).
But as a first degree, especially a graduate degree, I think employers sort of look askance at these.  I would love to expand my current knowledge of psychology and sociology with an on-line  Ph.D. in sociology but can't find a school that offers one.  I have traditional masters degrees in psych and soc and a traditional Ph.D.
in psych, I just want to add to my knowledge base.  I don't want to impress anybody with an on-line doctorate in sociology.  My second thought is to get another masters in a totally different area.  Has anyone checked out The American Military University?  All on-line degees and certificates in areas basically related to political science and military intelligence gathering. Interesting.  Especially at $275 a credit hour.  Check it out.  On-line degrees can be to (1) get some kind of credential, (2) learn more information.  Loren Wingblade

[music_ed_jay]

There are also different kinds of online degrees. At my university, we live-stream the classes and require the distance students to watch while the class is meeting on-campus. They are required to participate in the class discussions while they are going on. They ask questions just like they would had they been in the room. When they have presentations, we sometimes use video conferencing, but always use at least audio conferencing.

So, apart from them actually sitting next to me, they are basically the same as the on-campus students. The only difference is that they can sometimes attend class in their pajamas if they wish.

[groundhog]

Online degrees from legitimately accredited universities are gaining acceptance, in my opinion, depending on the university, the degree and the individual.  I agree with the poster who indicated that a second degree from an online university after the first was earned at a well-respected B&M school would be well received.   

My undergrad is from an R1 and my grad is from an online program at a B&M campus.  I now teach online at a junior college in addition to my career position in industry.  My industry job was obtained with the benefit of the Masters and my hiring boss knew the school (his son attended the B&M campus) and knew, by my work history and location, that I couldn't have gone to school there in person.   It was a total non-issue.

Commenting on instructors giving references: I had two grad instructors who encouraged me regarding my desire to teach online.  We had a number of conversations regarding online teaching.  They also provided glowing references, one after having met me in-person.   Instructors should be careful about giving references but should not unduly punish otherwise deserving online students just because they have not studied in person. 

[ac_frabetti]

I know that I am late posting on this topic, but:
I think the trend to online learning will follow that of online dating.  Everyone will question it, some will say that it is not the same, etc. until it becomes integrated into our culture. 
We also cannot have the same presumptions anymore about 'live' classrooms.  Already in our everyday lives much of our interactions have become mechanized.  There is no longer a real clean-cut distinction between face-to-face learning and the online degrees.  It is often that classrooms have Blackboard accounts, for example. 

[fizmath]

Will we ever see online or distance doctorates?  I mean useful respectable doctorates.

[twofish]

Will we ever see online or distance doctorates?  I mean useful respectable doctorates.

There are a few programs.

It's actually much easier to create an online or distance learning doctorate program
than it is to create an MBA program.  If you can get five respected scholars in a field
to supervise a program, and sign off on a dissertation, then the candidate is a Ph.D. 
The nice thing about Ph.D. programs is that they are messy things that you can't put
on assembly lines.

The reason that there are few respectable doctorate programs is that, to be totally blunt,
there is no money in it.  People who complete a Ph.D. program have this curious habit
of being interested in the topic they are studying rather than wanting to do so out of
money, and people who supervise a Ph.D. program have this curious habit of wanting
to conform to a higher calling than to just make money.

The net result is that there isn't a financial incentive to create reputable Ph.D. programs,
so it doesn't happen......

[dogvomit]

The fact that many schools make a special effort to hide whether the awarded degree was obtained online or traditionally should say everything.  Initially, when one of these programs was instituted at one of my former institutions, great care was made to ensure that the transcript and such could not be discerned form the regular student "Because of the possible employer/grad school prejudice against these students." 

personally, there is no way you can do a PHD online 200 mi from your major prof and have the same quality as a student in his/her lab.  Sorry, I don't care who graduated form one either.  If you graduated from one of these, you don't know sense you didn't go to a traditional program to compare.  When I look over my shoulder there are a few faculty around here who have such degrees, and their performance is obviously tied to the preparation.  Poor education = poor performance. 

If you can't get up to go to work, you don't get paid.
If you can't move to the school, then you shouldn't get the degree.

Fair? No
Appropriate? Yes
What about those who can't but want to?  Too bad, life isn't fair.

[twofish]

Because of the possible employer/grad school prejudice against these students.

There isn't any employer prejudice against online degrees.  There is grad school admission committee prejudice, but that system is so messed up that its hard for me to take what they think seriously.

When I look over my shoulder there are a few faculty around here who have such degrees, and their performance is obviously tied to the preparation.

No it isn't.  Faculty hiring is more of a function of politics and connections than anything else.  So is hiring in business, but business people at least admit that this is the case, so they have structures in place to keep things from getting out of hand.

The system as it exists now is that people with power define "quality" and they'll be damned if they define it in a way that that threatens their power and credentials.  The weird thing is that the situation is much less bad in business and finance, because you can define anything you want, but ultimately there is a bottom line of how much money you make, that keeps things open.

What about those who can't but want to?  Too bad, life isn't fair.

And as guardians of a grand and glorious intellectual tradition lasting thousands of years, and as people whose sacred duty is to uphold the highest values of humanity, this is your message to the world....

This is why I ended up working in an investment bank in Wall Street.  People here have much more of a social conscience and respect for their fellow human being than people in academia, and at least in my part of the fishbowl, people don't care where you went to school, just want you learned.

People here have figured out that if your treat people with respect and dignity, listen carefully to their hopes and dreams, and offer them solutions to their problems......  They are much more likely to open up their wallets and give you cash...... 

Imagine that.  Greed is good......

[jonesey]

If you can't get up to go to work, you don't get paid.
If you can't move to the school, then you shouldn't get the degree.

So, if you didn't know what you wanted to do when you were 18-22, tough sh!t?  Anyone who changes careers and wants to go back to school to enter academia is out of luck?  Sorry, I know you have a spouse and two kids but you'll have to quit work for five years to get your PhD? 

What is this, the 18th Century?

Oh, wait, I forgot, for most colleges and universities, it is.

[twofish]

What is this, the 18th Century? Oh, wait, I forgot, for most colleges and universities, it is.

What's curious is that people just aren't very well grounded in the history of the modern university.  Scholarship has existed for thousands of years, and universities have existed for hundreds.  But people make the mistake in assuming that the way universities are structured today are the way people have always taught things, and by implication the way people will always teach things.

In fact most of the elements of today's universities are very recent.    The idea of a professional non-denominational center of learning started in the mid 19th century.  The elective system started in the late 19th/early 20th.  The current admissions system started in the 1920's.  The massive increase in enrollment in which people were expected to go to university is a product of World War II and the cold war.

What's wonderfully inspirational is to go back to the mid-19th century and read works by the great educators of the time, such as William Barton Rogers and Charles W Eliot, and to look at how they were taking the great new technologies of their day, the steam engine, the telegraph, the factory and trying to apply those technologies to come up with educational systems that meet the social challenges of their time, massive immigration and the transformation of the United States from a rural and agricultural nation an urban industrial one.

So whatever the naysayers are doing, they aren't defending quality and they certainly aren't defending tradition.  I don't know really what they are doing and they should explain themselves.