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[halfpint]

I am teaching my first online course next semester and I would like to make discussion a part of their grade (maybe 30%).  I am concerned because my class will have 50 students (which will probably drop to 35 by the middle of the term).  For those of you who include discussion in your online course, do you have suggestions for how to manage/structure it for a large class (# and frequency of posts, etc.)?   What is the largest class online that taught that involved a discussion component?  Am I asking for trouble?

[larryc]

I teach intros of 120-160 students online with discussion as a big part of their grade.  I break the students into groups (I am guessing you are using Blackboard?) of 10-20. I divide the semester-long classes into 2-week units and appoint a team of 2-4 student discussion leaders. I have a handout that tells them how to frame good discussion questions. I tell students that they should post at least twice a week, bu the quality of their posts is more important than the quantity.  Quality meaning proper punctuation and grammar, including specific facts instead of just opinions, and moving the conversation forward rather than repeating things already said.

Discussion actually works better in online classes than in the classroom. There is no shyness, and every student gets to talk.

[trabb]

Here's the problem I had with online discussion - most students in the online classes I've taught (about 85-90%) will always wait until the final day of the unit to post.  The result is a mad flurry of posts clearly put up just to meet the course requirements.  Furthermore, these posts demonstrate little thought or care, something that's quite apparent when one student posts 6 posts/reply in the space of 15 minutes.  Any suggestions on how to avoid this would be appreciated!

[pythagoras]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I cannot find it right now in the Search. How do you, LarryC or anyone else, go about grading discussion responses without it being a headache. Do you use a rubric or some other method. On average, how long does it take you to grade the discussions and how frequently are you grading them?

Also, I would like to try to have discussion boards in my math courses. Has anyone done this? What has worked well for math-related subjects?

[tt_finally]

I'll add to the questions instead of answers:

Do you respond to student posts and enter into the discussion to try to guide it, or just step back and let them go, even if they falter a bit or have rather banal discussions? 

I usually stay in the background so as not to dominate, unless something is just flat wrong, but then feel like I'm falling down on the job. 

[cc_alan]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I cannot find it right now in the Search. How do you, LarryC or anyone else, go about grading discussion responses without it being a headache. Do you use a rubric or some other method. On average, how long does it take you to grade the discussions and how frequently are you grading them?

Also, I would like to try to have discussion boards in my math courses. Has anyone done this? What has worked well for math-related subjects?

A coworker has his math students do this.

He has a list of problems that need to be solved (area, 2 trains leaving at different times, etc.) and each student has to pick one. They have a list (rubric?) as to what they need to discuss about it and then students have to follow up on it.

Each discussion goes something like-

1. Statement of problem
    2. Student's discussion of the solution
    3. Other students discussing it

Alan

[larryc]

I involve my self only very lightly in the ongoing discussions, otherwise everyone is talking to me instead of with one another.  I refuse to give grades until the end of the semester, I just refer inquiries to the syllabus, which emphasizes the importance of posting early and often in the discussion units. At grading time I look at the total number of posts, when in each unit they were posted, and randomly open a few to reread.  This with the gradesheet close at hand showing their other grades throughout the semester. "Hmmm...Suzy Creamcheese earned low Bs on all the tests, posted an average number of times, tended to do so late in the discussion...she keeps her B unless she gets an A+ or lower than a C- on discussion...let's give her a C+ for participation."  I assign these grades quickly and intuitively, but then go back and recheck those where it changes the final grade.

As to the late-posting problem, I have it too.  Having student discussion leaders helps some.  And nearly every one of my biweekly quizzes ends with a question about the course policies on discussions, for example:

Q. Suppose you posted only the minimum number of responses in this unit's discussion, and posted only in the last 48 hours of the discussion. Are you earning a good participation grade?

A. No.
B. Hell no.
C. Absolutely not.
D. All of the above. [Hint: The answer is D.]

[eternal_adjunct]

I haven't solved the mad flurry at the deadline thing yet.  But I will agree with LarryC that online discussion can be quite fun and engaging, for the reasons he mentioned.

Here's how I manage my online classes, three of which have participation as a requirement (I don't do it in logic, but I'm thinking about ways to put it in for the spring).

1) Give the students a wide range of choices in terms of questions/topics etc. to post on.  I find that this simulates classroom discussion a bit more effectively, and it gives people some freedom to talk about things they might feel more comfortable talking about.  To keep it from turning into 28 posts on topic 1, though, I would suggest capping responses to a topic.  So if you post 10 topics for the week, then limit it to 5 student posts per topic, or something like that.

2) Have the students respond to each other.  Typically, my students have to post a response to one of my topics, and to one of their classmate's topics.  I also require that their posts to classmate topics be on different topics than they posted on originally.  This gets them thinking about two different specific questions.  I might make this even more specific in the spring, to help them get to more general topics.  So for example, if this week's chapter is on topic X, and there are three different theories relating to topic X that we read in the text book, then I may require them to post something on X1, and respond to a classmate's post on something relating to X2 or X3.

3) Because I try to make online participation simulate a classroom discussion (albeit an asychronous one), I do not grade on content.  I simply look to see if the student really completed that week's participation requirement.  So someone posting "He that's deep!" doesn't count, there has to be something in there of substance.  But if someone makes mistakes, I correct them, but don't count the mistake against them for that requirement (although obviously it's a different story when it comes to tests!).  This helps keep people talking without fear of being wrong, which I take to be an important component of participation.

4) I usually don't bother people about grammar, etc in conference posts, although I might revisit this policy in the spring.

5) I respond to nearly every post.  I do this by having a few times a day where I check the class site.  This must be done every day (even on the weekends, although sometimes I only check once on the weekends).  But if it is done every day, you should find that it is much more manageable than trying to get to 50 posts all at once.  Also, students seem to like the fact that I respond to nearly everything, even if it is just to say "that sounds good" or "good point," or something like that.  Also, if you don't do this, and wrong stuff gets up there, it can really get out of hand.  This might lead to students not thinking anyone is in charge of the class, which can lead to various other kinds of headaches later.

This last one (checking every day and responding) took me the longest time to get used to.  Teaching f2f classes (as we call them now - oy!), one goes to the class, does it, and then can forget about it until it meets again (in terms of discussions, etc).  But the online class is every day - unless you want to get way backed up!

I hope some of that was marginally useful.  Best of luck!

[outlier]

I give students guidelines; maybe you'll find something here to use or adapt.

Dialogue guidelines and evaluation checklist
At least for the next 4 weeks, while we get going in the discussion, I'd like each of you to post 6 (or more) messages each week:
2 original messages (where you post a new message in a thread)
2 replies to other messages
2 responses to other replies

Your messages should be substantive, using the checklist below. You don't have to be able to check off every item on the list, but you should be able to check at least 2 out of 3 on the original messages and 2 out of 5 on the replies. Your messages will probably need to be at least 5 or 6 sentences long. Feel free to add shorter messages as well. You can use this checklist to evaluate your contributions before you click on "post."

Original messages
--I have summarized the key ideas in a reading or group of readings and stated what they mean to me (my opinion/position and the evidence to support it)
--I have discussed or given examples of how the key ideas apply to me or why they don't
--I have discussed how this reading or lesson connects to others in the course

Replies
--I have re-stated the author's point in my own words
--I have given reasons or examples of my own for agreeing or disagreeing with the author's point
--I have added to the original idea with my own reasons, evidence, and/or examples
--I have shown another way to look at the issue being discussed
--I have asked a clarifying question

____________
You could also include something about the writing style if you want standard English rather than txt mssg-style writing.

I've also found online discussion to be better than in-class. There's more opportunity for thoughtful discussion, there's time to reflect between comments, and everyone participates.

[larryc]

Outlier, that is a great way to set things up.  Thanks for posting.

[halfpint]

I teach intros of 120-160 students online with discussion as a big part of their grade.  I break the students into groups (I am guessing you are using Blackboard?) of 10-20. I divide the semester-long classes into 2-week units and appoint a team of 2-4 student discussion leaders. I have a handout that tells them how to frame good discussion questions. I tell students that they should post at least twice a week, bu the quality of their posts is more important than the quantity.  Quality meaning proper punctuation and grammar, including specific facts instead of just opinions, and moving the conversation forward rather than repeating things already said.

Discussion actually works better in online classes than in the classroom. There is no shyness, and every student gets to talk.

Larryc, your idea of splitting students into groups is interesting.  I'm curious about how your introductory students handle the discussion leader responsibility.  I can imagine my students freaking out over the task of coming up with a discussion question.  What kinds of guidelines have you found to be most helpful to give students re: discussion leading?  Also, how much does discussion count toward their grade? 

I will have to save the other responses to this thread for later, when I am ready to plan how to grade discussion.  Thanks!

[larryc]

Here are the sections about participation from my online syllabus, feel free to use or adapt whatever you like.  I follow this up with various posts and announcements as the semester continues:

Class Participation: This means engaging in a critical discussion of American history on the class discussion board. The quality of your posts is more important than their quantity, but students are expected to post at least two thoughtful comments each week. Your posts should contain historical details, not just baseless opinions. You are strongly encouraged to engage the other students in you postings, do not write only to the professor. Extra points are awarded for politely responding to other students' comments, and especially for starting successful discussion threads. Your posts should be your own words, if you quote from the textbook or some website, explain what you are doing and use quotation marks. Your postings should be timely, posted no later than the deadline for the quiz over that material. You may continue ongoing discussions after the week is over, but will not get any additional points.  Do not go into the discussion boards at the end of the semester and post a bunch of comments that no one will read that is worse than not posting at all. Determining your participation grades is a big job, and I will not attempt to tackle it until after the last quiz has been completed, so do not ask me what your score is before then.

Discussion Leaders: Students will take turns leading the online discussions.  See the schedule for your turn.  Students lead the discussions by posting provocative questions and keeping the conversation going. Make sure the questions are up at the very start of the week.  Discussion leaders may choose to email one another to coordinate their leadership before the week begins.   Good discussion questions are typically open-ended and debatable, but are also specific enough to promote a focused discussion. Your leadership the week you are in charge is worth half your participation points, so give it your all. Regardless of who is discussion leader, all students are encouraged start new threads and discussions if they find something that interests them.

You can also lose participation points. Each week that you fail to post two thoughtful comments, you lose twenty points. A complete failure to participate in this class will result in a loss of a full letter grade! You will also lose points for sending me an unprofessional email (see below), forwarding junk mail or false rumors to the professor or students, or for being rude or disrespectful to your fellow students.

[cc_alan]

You can also lose participation points. Each week that you fail to post two thoughtful comments, you lose twenty points. A complete failure to participate in this class will result in a loss of a full letter grade! You will also lose points for sending me an unprofessional email (see below), forwarding junk mail or false rumors to the professor or students, or for being rude or disrespectful to your fellow students.
[/i]

I like this. Any stories you can share about students sending unprofessional email or making unprofessional posts and how they reacted when you took points away?

Alan

[starmay2002]

Here's the problem I had with online discussion - most students in the online classes I've taught (about 85-90%) will always wait until the final day of the unit to post.  The result is a mad flurry of posts clearly put up just to meet the course requirements.  Furthermore, these posts demonstrate little thought or care, something that's quite apparent when one student posts 6 posts/reply in the space of 15 minutes.  Any suggestions on how to avoid this would be appreciated!

I require between three or four posts/responses a week. Students can choose from a selection of topic threads on a rotating series covering issues we discuss throughout the course. In order to avoid the last-minute flurry, all posts must occur on seperate days. If a student posts three on one day, those posts will only count as one toward the requirement. Do they hem and haw about this? Yes... but the results are wonderful and students come to appreciate the structure because it does make for better discussions.

As for grading, when I check the shell I can sort by name or date of post. I then check the posts off in an old-school, hard-copy gradebook and assign a number grade on the course shell every week. I also read and get involved in the discussion but tend to do my interaction and grading on different days.

[larryc]

CC_Alan: I teach in the Midwest, where politeness is the supreme virtue, so there is not too much trouble.  I was a very early online teacher--I was doing it before Blackboard--and in the early days the students skewed more heavily to male computer geeks who were acculturated the Usenet discussion board style of intellectual exchange. (U R TEH SUXXORS1!!) In truth I never had a whole lot of problems along those lines, and they have died down since.  Perhaps that section of my syllabus is an artifact that needs to go away.