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[dark_globe]

I have yet to be shown the passage in the Quran that condones suicide or the killing of innocents.

That's because there is no such verse. However, in Sahih Bukhari, the most authoritative collection of ahaadith (sayings of Muhammad), there is this passage:

004.052.258 

Narrated Ibn 'Umar

During some of the Ghazawat of Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.

Which begs the question, why is suicide bombing such an ingrained part of Islamic culture, and the preferred weapon of Islamic extremests?

Your first comment is completely absurd and borders on Islamophobia. Most Muslims are horrified by suicide bombings. There are over one billion Muslims on earth. Virtually all of them are peaceful. Modern technology has made it possible for a few individuals to cause large numbers of casualties.

Suicide attacks have been resorted to by many groups in human history. In previous cases, the technology available did not allow for spectacular results.

You should learn something about Muslims rather than rely on stereotypes.

[jonesey]

I have yet to be shown the passage in the Quran that condones suicide or the killing of innocents.

That's because there is no such verse. However, in Sahih Bukhari, the most authoritative collection of ahaadith (sayings of Muhammad), there is this passage:

004.052.258 

Narrated Ibn 'Umar

During some of the Ghazawat of Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.

Which begs the question, why is suicide bombing such an ingrained part of Islamic culture, and the preferred weapon of Islamic extremests?

Your first comment is completely absurd and borders on Islamophobia. Most Muslims are horrified by suicide bombings. There are over one billion Muslims on earth. Virtually all of them are peaceful. Modern technology has made it possible for a few individuals to cause large numbers of casualties.

Suicide attacks have been resorted to by many groups in human history. In previous cases, the technology available did not allow for spectacular results.

You should learn something about Muslims rather than rely on stereotypes.

Fair enough, however, in the past, say, fifty years, Islamic extremist groups are the primary organizations utilizing suicide bombing as a weapon, and doing so on a regular basis.   So, I'll retract that it's part of Islamic culture at large.  What I meant to say is that it's part of the culture of Islamic terrorism.  Terrorism which has the support of huge numbers of Muslims, peaceful or not.  I'm sure they're horrified at the bombings, but when Americans are dragged through the streets, or the World Trade Center is bombed, whole neighborhoods are dancing in the streets of Gaza and the West Bank. 

In other words, for a people that are horrified about suicide bombing, they don't seem to have much trouble supporting the people that carry the bombings out. 

[dark_globe]

I have yet to be shown the passage in the Quran that condones suicide or the killing of innocents.

That's because there is no such verse. However, in Sahih Bukhari, the most authoritative collection of ahaadith (sayings of Muhammad), there is this passage:

004.052.258 

Narrated Ibn 'Umar

During some of the Ghazawat of Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.

Which begs the question, why is suicide bombing such an ingrained part of Islamic culture, and the preferred weapon of Islamic extremests?

Your first comment is completely absurd and borders on Islamophobia. Most Muslims are horrified by suicide bombings. There are over one billion Muslims on earth. Virtually all of them are peaceful. Modern technology has made it possible for a few individuals to cause large numbers of casualties.

Suicide attacks have been resorted to by many groups in human history. In previous cases, the technology available did not allow for spectacular results.

You should learn something about Muslims rather than rely on stereotypes.

Fair enough, however, in the past, say, fifty years, Islamic extremist groups are the primary organizations utilizing suicide bombing as a weapon, and doing so on a regular basis.   So, I'll retract that it's part of Islamic culture at large.  What I meant to say is that it's part of the culture of Islamic terrorism.  Terrorism which has the support of huge numbers of Muslims, peaceful or not.  I'm sure they're horrified at the bombings, but when Americans are dragged through the streets, or the World Trade Center is bombed, whole neighborhoods are dancing in the streets of Gaza and the West Bank. 

In other words, for a people that are horrified about suicide bombing, they don't seem to have much trouble supporting the people that carry the bombings out. 

When the 9/11 attacks happened Iranians demonstrated against the terrorists. All the Muslims I knew at the time (I was very involved in the world Islamic community at the time) were horrified by the attacks. My group sent repeated statements to newspapers around the US denouncing the attacks in the name of Muslims all over the world. Not a single paper printed one of our statements.

As for the Palestinians, they already hated America for its support of Israel. No matter which side of the issue you fall on, it is not difficult to understand people rejoicing at the misfortunes of someone they perceive as their enemy. Frankly, I steer clear of them in general. My connections are all in the Turkic speaking Islamic world.

[dark_globe]

Too late to modify the last post.

I really see the problem as generated from the Arab world, not the Islamic world in general. When I was a practicing Muslim, I found the Arabs to be very strange, unaccepting, particularly rigid in their thinking, and encountered a disproportionate level of antisemitism.

[jonesey]

I have yet to be shown the passage in the Quran that condones suicide or the killing of innocents.

That's because there is no such verse. However, in Sahih Bukhari, the most authoritative collection of ahaadith (sayings of Muhammad), there is this passage:

004.052.258 

Narrated Ibn 'Umar

During some of the Ghazawat of Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.

Which begs the question, why is suicide bombing such an ingrained part of Islamic culture, and the preferred weapon of Islamic extremests?

Your first comment is completely absurd and borders on Islamophobia. Most Muslims are horrified by suicide bombings. There are over one billion Muslims on earth. Virtually all of them are peaceful. Modern technology has made it possible for a few individuals to cause large numbers of casualties.

Suicide attacks have been resorted to by many groups in human history. In previous cases, the technology available did not allow for spectacular results.

You should learn something about Muslims rather than rely on stereotypes.

Fair enough, however, in the past, say, fifty years, Islamic extremist groups are the primary organizations utilizing suicide bombing as a weapon, and doing so on a regular basis.   So, I'll retract that it's part of Islamic culture at large.  What I meant to say is that it's part of the culture of Islamic terrorism.  Terrorism which has the support of huge numbers of Muslims, peaceful or not.  I'm sure they're horrified at the bombings, but when Americans are dragged through the streets, or the World Trade Center is bombed, whole neighborhoods are dancing in the streets of Gaza and the West Bank. 

In other words, for a people that are horrified about suicide bombing, they don't seem to have much trouble supporting the people that carry the bombings out. 

When the 9/11 attacks happened Iranians demonstrated against the terrorists. All the Muslims I knew at the time (I was very involved in the world Islamic community at the time) were horrified by the attacks. My group sent repeated statements to newspapers around the US denouncing the attacks in the name of Muslims all over the world. Not a single paper printed one of our statements.

As for the Palestinians, they already hated America for its support of Israel. No matter which side of the issue you fall on, it is not difficult to understand people rejoicing at the misfortunes of someone they perceive as their enemy. Frankly, I steer clear of them in general. My connections are all in the Turkic speaking Islamic world.

More excellent points, and I agree that if there's a "reasonable" side to Islam, especially if it happens in Iran or Syria, etc, we probably won't see it in America.  I imagine it's difficult to steer clear of the Palestinian "issue" if you're involved with Muslim groups of any stripe.  Of course, Turkey has its own issues with genocide, but we're not talking about that here.  

[jonesey]

I really see the problem as generated from the Arab world, not the Islamic world in general.

Another issue is, of course, that in the West, we usually don't see a difference between the two.

[dark_globe]

I really see the problem as generated from the Arab world, not the Islamic world in general.

Another issue is, of course, that in the West, we usually don't see a difference between the two.

People in the west don't realize there are Arab Christians, either.

The Arabs, particularly on the peninsula, follow an extremely rigid and, frankly, backwards madhhab (school of thought) of Sunni Islam (the Hanbali Madhhab). The Turks either follow the Shafi'i or Hanafi madhhab, both of which are moderate in their interpretation of Islamic practice and more accomodating to new influences (particularly the Hanafi madhhab, the predominant form in the former Soviet Union). Couple that with dictatorial regimes who control what the imams are allowed to say and you have some pretty nasty propaganda being spread.

This is why it is so ironic that the US is close to the Saudis. A friend of mine was at a khutba (sermon) in Saudi Arabia just after a bombing in a cafe in Israel. The imam said something to the effect of "twenty were wounded, but Insha'Allah (God willing) they will die from their wounds"!!!!!!! This is a complete perversion of everything Islam stands for. And this goes on in mosques across Saudi Arabia every day.

[pyshnov]

In several last postings it is accepted that "good" Moslems should not celebrate suicide bombings, other acts of "terror" and Israeli losses. It is accepted that only religious extremists do so.

I think that such view is missing an important fact - the war between Israel and Arabs, and now - between America supporting Israel and the entire Moslem world.

Excessive to say that hostility toward Israel and Jews on the part of Moslems would not have any justifications without the war. However, we should remember that it is a Christian tradition to bless the solders who are going to war with another country, whether against another Christian country or a country of a different Faith. There is absolutely nothing extremist about a clergy who is blessing the solders, although killing people is not a Christian thing to do. The war changes it all. It is not a religious extremism to celebrate the death of the enemy.

For one who is a supporter of Israel, it is natural to hate Arabs and Moslems in general. However, building the theory of Moslem religious extremism is ridiculous.

It has been "revealed" to us by the press that majority of Palestinian suicide bombers are not religious fanatics at all. It is also admitted (and on this thread) that the Moslem world in general still does not celebrate the death of the enemy, the religious morals are still prevailing. How on Earth one can build "explanation" of Moslem hostility toward Israel and US on the theory of religious extremism, ignoring the war, occupation of Arab lands, in fact now - several countries, tortures in Israeli and American prisons, poisoning the land with radioactive waste, etc., etc.? And, finally, are we far away from accusing the Moslems of ritual killings followed by drinking of Jewish blood?

[jtsmr]

I have yet to be shown the passage in the Quran that condones suicide or the killing of innocents.

That's because there is no such verse. However, in Sahih Bukhari, the most authoritative collection of ahaadith (sayings of Muhammad), there is this passage:

004.052.258 

Narrated Ibn 'Umar

During some of the Ghazawat of Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.

Which begs the question, why is suicide bombing such an ingrained part of Islamic culture, and the preferred weapon of Islamic extremests?

This is something, jonesy, that continues to perplexe me as well. 

Having seen Muslim culture upfront, living abroad, there appears a traditional superstition, the only way I can put it, that tends to direct Islamic society.  I am atheist; however, I am a defender of all faiths, though this may read glibely, but Islam challenges me at times as I feel it is still in a state of evolution.  But in terms of what I'm calling "traditional superstition," there are things I experienced while living in European majority Muslim neighborhoods and in the ME from well-intended Muslim friends, and I do mean friends, that I find amusing i.e., asking rather casually whether one is circumcized--how and when does such a question ever become appropriate to ask is beyond me??--and whether I'm married.  Also, I recall a 77-year-old friend who was travelling in Istanbul at the time where I was living who reported speaking with two Turkish businessmen who asked if she were a virgin after telling them she never married.  Maybe it's just me, but I could never ask a 77-year-old if s/he were a virgin, much less ever married.

Speaking of virgins, if blowing oneself up for probable celestio-virginal coitus is the reward for punishing "infidels," I'd have to question this. I'd be afraid.  Very afraid.

Perhaps, jonesy, suicide bombers are metaphorical for a need to dialogue which many feel Muslims are deprived of.

Question: Is there any other recourse if a gun is pointed at your mother's head at the kitchen table while brothers and sisters watch, meal interrupted, and being told to vacate your own house?  Compassion? No. This is an extreme example.  But suicide bombing is extreme, no?

A question I'd like to see an answer to is the fascination many Muslims have with Hitler and Nazism. We all know, I think, the participation some very top Islamists had with the Nazi party.  This is documented. The shared Judeophobia between Nazis and Islamists, I find fascinating.

I also find alqahiri's posts on these fora fascinating :)

[solly]

Wonderful to see this discussion continued in such fine and reasoned style. I am currently travelling in a country that does not offer very good internet service so cannot post as before. Should be back on line in a fortnight or so.
One small point Jonesy.

Islamic extremist groups are the primary organizations utilizing suicide bombing as a weapon

This is simply not true as Robert Pape's study shows (see my previous post.
Keep up the good work.

[jonesey]

More on Muslims and suicide bombings:

From the San Francisco Chronicle (hardly a right-wing newspaper):

About 1 in 4 young adult American Muslims says suicide bombings against civilian targets "to defend Islam" can be justified rarely, sometimes or often, according to a new Pew Research Center poll -- a finding that disturbed American Muslim leaders and thinkers across the country.

"It's something that the Muslim community should be aware of -- it's a phenomenon we should be concerned about," said Farid Senzai, a Fremont resident and director of research for the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding, which helped shape the questions on the survey. "It is very troubling."

Further down:

Senzai and others cautioned that the figures should be kept in context: Only 1 percent of Muslims overall said suicide bombings are "often" justifiable and an additional 7 percent said they are "sometimes" justifiable.

Several American Muslim leaders said survey respondents, particularly those 18 to 29, were probably thinking about foreign policy and Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation -- and do not support attacks such as the Sept. 11 hijackings or the train bombings in London and Madrid.

The survey revealed some striking demographic information:

Pew estimates that there are 2.35 million Muslims in the United States -- 4 million to 6 million fewer than many American Muslim groups estimate.

-- African Americans are the single largest ethnic group among Muslims, accounting for 20 percent. Another 65 percent are immigrants from an array of countries, with the single largest group -- 8 percent -- from Pakistan.

[solly]

Israel, 'Zionist ghetto' not state‎
Sat, 09 Jun 2007 08:50:36 
 
Israel's former parliament speaker Avraham Burg has branded Israel as a 'Zionist ghetto' in ‎his newly-published book
Israel's former parliament speaker has branded Israel as a 'Zionist ghetto', scoffing at the regime's self-definition as a Jewish state.
 
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=12519&sectionid=351020202

[22079340]

Academic and others can talk about Israel.  However, if they take a position contrary to right wing ideologues, like Alan Dershowitz, they run the risk of being denied professional advancement--or even employment--as was demonstrated when DePaul University denied tenure to Professors Finkelstein and Larudee--despite the overwhelming support of their faculty colleagues.

The lessons?
1. A "democratic vote" only matters when it turns out the way one wishes--whether at DePaul in 2007 or in Florida 2000.

2. In the US, folks can criticize the US Congress and the President; however, criticizing Israel is not allowable--on any terms.

Shame on De Paul, shame on Alan Dershowitz, and shame on all those whose narrowminded shortsightedness continues to silence the voices of the majority of Israelis and Americans who realize that their nation's Mideast policies provide neither peace nor security.

[solly]

Seems there are two threads on this topic.

It seems a bit over the top to ban Desmond Tutu for "talking about Israel":

"We had heard some things he said that some people judged to be anti-Semitic and against Israeli policy," says Doug Hennes, St. Thomas's vice president for university and government relations. "

http://articles.citypages.com/2007-10-03/news/banning-desmond-tutu

[solly]

The Harvard Crimson
Israel and Censorship at Harvard
Opinion

"In a 2006 faculty meeting, Peretz Professor of Yiddish Literature Ruth R. Wisse vocalized the underlying rationale of such censorship as few other professors have dared. Denying that anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are separate phenomena, she declared anti-Zionism-that is, the rejection of the racially-based claim that Jewish people have a collective right to Palestine-the worst kind of anti-Semitism. For such defenders of Israel, any acknowledgment that Zionism in principle and in practice violates Palestinian rights is tantamount to an endorsement of the Holocaust."

By J. LORAND MATORY

J. Lorand Matory '82 is professor of anthropology and of African and African-American studies.

http://www.coastalpost.com/07/10/13.html