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[jonesey]

What, if any, is your principal misgiving with Islam or its practictioners?

My fundamential misgiving is that it seems, the way most of the world practices it, that Islam is incompatable with the West. 

[jtsmr]

What, if any, is your principal misgiving with Islam or its practictioners?

My fundamential misgiving is that it seems, the way most of the world practices it, that Islam is incompatable with the West. 

Could you specify how and in what way it is incompatible?  I'm interested in how you perceive the incompatibility.

[jonesey]

Could you specify how and in what way it is incompatible?  I'm interested in how you perceive the incompatibility.

Not with any sort of academic accuracy, however, I'll try to list a few things.

The treatment of women as second class citizens

The use of force, including torture and death, to convert people to Islam in modern times (note, I said "modern" times to divert the unavoidable Crusades comment)

The insistance that Israel (and, in most cases, the Jews) must be destroyed

The belief that if hu kills huself in a suicide bomb attack on innocent civilians, including children, hu goes to Heaven

And, to quote Pope Benedict:
"Islam has a total organization of life that is completely different from ours; it embraces simply everything," he said. "There is a very marked subordination of woman to man; there is a very tightly knit criminal law, indeed, a law regulating all areas of life, that is opposed to our modern ideas about society. One has to have a clear understanding that it is not simply a denomination that can be included in the free realm of a pluralistic society."

To paraphrase Clint Eastwood, it's very difficult to reason with your enemies when "God" gets involved.  If your enemy believes that everything hu does is according to the "Word of God" then you're going to be at war for a long, long time.

[jtsmr]

Could you specify how and in what way it is incompatible?  I'm interested in how you perceive the incompatibility.

Not with any sort of academic accuracy, however, I'll try to list a few things.

The treatment of women as second class citizens

The use of force, including torture and death, to convert people to Islam in modern times (note, I said "modern" times to divert the unavoidable Crusades comment)

The insistance that Israel (and, in most cases, the Jews) must be destroyed

The belief that if hu kills huself in a suicide bomb attack on innocent civilians, including children, hu goes to Heaven

Yes, many of these I understand and agree with.  I often suggest to people who may feel a need to be Islamophobic--not saying that you are Jonesy--is to understand what undergirds a cultures superstitions and customs.  Many of the beliefs mentioned above are certainly misconstrued interpretations--as opposed to accurate interpretations?--no, not really.  People can be driven by a lack of reason, I know how Western/imperialist that sounds, my Muslim brothers, so pardon me.  My attempts in reading culture involved attempting to understand from where a society is coming.  In terms of Islam, this is usually from the Koran.

I had a colleague say something that shocked me: Islam is a religion for poor people, in general.  And Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, I retorted!!  His argument was that when an ideology/religion is never questioned or critiqued, it atrophies.  And those societies that practice such paradigms remain stagnant and pre-modern.  I believe this is some of the issue with Islam.

Christianity, and I'm not a Christian I prefer humanist, went through its rounds of cosmetic enhancements so much so that finding persons in the 21st century who feel the Bible is "the inspired word of God" seems rather perverse, IMHO.

One criticism of Islam is that its practictioners do not seek to make it more palatable for modern digestion.  But how to do this?.....

[jonesey]

And, to be clear, I don't think that Islam has to be like this, anymore than Christianity has to be left in the hands of right-wing, evangelicals.  It just seems that the wrong people are seen as the face if Islam. 

Also, Islam as practiced in America is differs significantly than Islam practiced in the Middle East. 

Islam is a "poor" religion?  When I was in Saudi Arabia, most of the people I saw were anything but poor.

[solly]

Jonesy

Islam is incompatable with the West.

A visit to Malaysia would dispel this notion. More than 70% Moslem, the nation is a bustling Western-style federation of States and has three women in cabinet and female representation in the professions that rivals the West.

The treatment of women as second class citizens

Surely the existence of Cabinet ministers, Heads of State argues against this? Benazir Bhutto for instance.

Turkey is an interesting example, from the aspect of the position of women, because it is a country which is influenced by all the contradictions of globalization and traditions. First of all, the great majority of the population in Turkey is Moslem. Today, women are observed in the forefront of various echelons of the administration of the state.
....Turkey also accepted without reservations the Action Platform which was adopted at the Fourth World Women's Conference held in Beijing in 1995.
...The principle of the equality of women-men has been adopted in the Constitution and in the laws of Turkey.

http://www.enjoyturkey.com/info/culture/Woman.htm

Here is a list of Women MPs and former MPs in Iran:

Fatemeh Ajoorloo (MP-7th Majlis) - Vahideh Alaie Taleqani MD (Former MP) - Fatemeh Alia (MP-7th Majlis) - Elham Aminzadeh PhD (MP-7th Majlis) - Shahrbanu Amani (Former MP) - Rafat Bayat (MP-7th Majlis) - Massoumeh Ebtekar, PhD (Vice President) - Hamide Edalat, PhD (Former MP) - Laleh Eftekhari (MP-7th Majlis) - Faezeh Hashemi (Former MP/Publisher) - Fatemeh Haqiqatjou, PhD (Former MP) - Soheila Jelodarzadeh (Former MP) - Jamileh Kadivar, PhD (Former MP) - Fatemeh Khatami (Former MP) - Elaheh Kulai (Former MP) - Mehrangiz Morovati (MP-7th Majlis) - Akram Mosavari Manesh (Former MP) - Azam Naseripour (Former MP) - Mojgan Nour (Amlesh Mayor) - Fatemeh Rahbar (MP-7th Majlis) - Fatemeh Rakei PhD (Former MP) - Tahereh Rezazadeh (Former MP) - Eshrat Shayegh (MP-7th Majlis) - Azam Taleqani (Former MP) - Marziyeh Vahid Dastjerdi MD (Former MP)

http://www.parstimes.com/women/#Politics
Incidentally, the majority of University Students in Iran are women.

Here are the publisher's notes from "Women in the Medieval Islamic World: Power, Patronage, and Piety" by Gavin R.G. Hambly, Professor of History at the University of Texas at Dallas.

Draws women from behind the veil of male-oriented society in the pre- modern phase of Islamic history with 23 original essays, challenging the assumption that Moslem women have no history. Among the figures portrayed are rulers, politicians, poets, patrons

Here's a piece from "Women in the Arab World by Nouha al-Hegelan

I can imagine the surprise among feminists when they learn that the Prophet's first wife, Khadijah, was an able business woman; that Sheika Nafissa was a theologian from whom the Imam Shaffei, one of the four scholars of Islam, was proud to say he had learned. How many Western women know that, even at this early date, Arab women fought in battles alongside the men in full equality or that the glamorous Queen Zubaidah built a canal to provide water for the pilgrims en route to Mecca? How many know that, since the 10th century, Arab women throughout the Islamic world have been doctors and nurses?

http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/arbwomn.htm

The use of force, including torture and death, to convert people to Islam in modern times (note, I said "modern" times to divert the unavoidable Crusades comment)

The insistance that Israel (and, in most cases, the Jews) must be destroyed

The belief that if hu kills huself in a suicide bomb attack on innocent civilians, including children, hu goes to Heaven

To the best of my knowledge, the above are myths. If you have evidence to the contrary I would be glad to examine it and it's origins. I have yet to be shown the passage in the Quran that condones suicide or the killing of innocents. I have, on the other hand, been surprised by the status accorded the Dhimmi in the Quran.
http://www.caliphate.co.uk/caliphate/nonmuslims.htm

Now.

All religions contain, within their scriptures, rather abhorrent prescriptions. As far as my reading goes, the Quran is actually one of the least culpable in this regard. Who would deny that the Old Testament prescribes some barbaric punishments for behaviour we now regard as acceptable? The Torah abounds in racist and horrific punishments. Why do we make allowances for these texts and condemn the Quran?

And, to quote Pope Benedict:
"Islam has a total organization of life that is completely different from ours; it embraces simply everything

I am not sure how qualified Pope Benedict is to comment on Islam but how many times have I heard Christians aver that "God is in everything", "Let Jesus rule your life" etc. The rhetoric of religion rarely differs. How long has it been since Catholicism admitted Women Priests? When is it going to relax it's position on birth control?

It just seems that the wrong people are seen as the face if Islam.

I would suggest that you have the likes of Daniel Pipes and the popular press to blame for this. I'm afraid if you advocate the bombing of Al-Jazeera however, you are probably not someone who is likely to come across many of the "right" people who write and speak about Islam.

Two final questions to ponder.

There are roughly 1,500.000.000 Muslims in the World. How many, in your estimation, adhere to the fundamentalist line that you have described?

Which group, Christian or Muslim, contains the greatest number (per head of population) of violent criminals, political or otherwise?

[jonesey]

Solly,

Okay, we're going in circles here.  You can point out countries like Malaysia and state that women in Islamic countries are treated great (unless, of course, they fall under Hudood and Zina ordinances, in which case it's okay to beat them for extramarital sex, etc).  You make repeated posts (and well researched ones, I must say) about how Islam is a wonderful religion, and the United States is wrong, and the Jews control the media, and it's those damn Israelis who want the United States to blow up all of these peaceful Muslims who, evidently, are busy planting flowers and forming literacy groups when their not strapping C-4 to their chests to blow up a daycare center somewhere.

I get it.  But, really, what's your point?  What's the agenda?

Does the United States need to have a better understanding of Islamic culture?  Yes, absolutely.  Do I think that a better understanding of said culture would help to avoid misunderstandings that lead to war?  Yes.  Do I think that there are some groups, and some people, who are evil and need to be killed?  Yes, and I think that, despite the debacle in Iraq, that there really is a War on Terror, and that the United States is taking on the responsibility of making the world safe (not just the USA) because we're the only ones able to do so.  I wish we'd do it smarter than we are right now, but I have no problem with invading Afghanistan, and I think, personally, that the only way to pacify Iraq is to put about 400.000 troops in country and set up a military government, ala General McArthur in Japan after WWII.  The Iraqis aren't ready to govern themselves (indeed, I don't think they're capable of it right now) and the only way to get peace in that country is for one side to have a monopoly of force.  We need to be that side.  Once that's accomplished, then we can look at letting the Iraqis take over govermental duties.  Right now, they can't run a crossing guard station without secular infighting.

We tend to see things from different backgrounds.  You're a scholar from a neutral country that hasn't been involved in warfare since WWII.  I'm a professor from a military background who has been to combat in the Middle East.  My opinions are, obviously, biased, and based more on my own experience than international op/ed articles, etc. 

I'm working on expanding my knowledge of Islamic culture, and you have certainly helped in this regard.   

[jtsmr]

Also, Islam as practiced in America is differs significantly than Islam practiced in the Middle East. 

You shoud turn the above statement into a banner so that our often clueless Americans--excuse me Moderator:)--can absorb this truth.  Islam as practiced in these United States has little or no resemblance to Middle Eastern, Mediterranean Islam.

Jonesy

Islam is incompatable with the West.

A visit to Malaysia would dispel this notion.

Equally, a visit to Saudi Arabia, Eastern Turkey and parts of Iran would "repel" this notion.

The treatment of women as second class citizens

Surely the existence of Cabinet ministers, Heads of State argues against this? Benazir Bhutto for instance.

And the number of women who continued to be stoned for their "indiscretions" and killed to preserve the family's honor?  There were 2 "honor killings" in progressive Turkey in March and April of 2004. Let's not too soon forget the constant "honor killings" in Germany and the clash of traditional culture there and in similar countries where young Muslim girls' lives are threatened due to non-compliance with traditional culture.  Of course, traditional expressions of Islam are not necessarily canonically Islamic. 

Remember the International Women's Day demonstration also in Turkey when the police officer kicked the one woman in the face? CNN/BBC World loved showing that to us because they knew "we'd" love to see it!

There're always exceptions to what Westerners perceive as "progress" in democratically developing or non-democratic Islamic theocracies.  I, too, like solly's footnoting. But I tend to look askance at such things as they often present foggy pictures.  I know because I've lived in these regions.

But "we", the West, need more to understand differences and stop insisting, in our subtle PC ways, that everybody be "like us," that is, white, male and protestant.

[solly]

Jonesy, jtsmr.

I am very busy these next few days but if you will bear with me, I will try to find the time to compose a response in a more general, philosophical tone.
Meantime, a few comments, in no particular order.

You will have noticed that I frequently draw attention to what I see as "equivalences" between "their" actions/rhetoric and "ours". I think their is an inherent chauvinism in Western thought and if I have an "agenda", it is to draw attention to this.

neutral country that hasn't been involved in warfare since WWII

New Zealand has special forces in Afghanistan and has taken a major peacekeeping role in East Timor. On a per head of population basis, our contribution to two World Wars, Korea and Vietnam is that of a major player. We declined the invitation to Iraq, a decision I do not regret.

You make repeated posts (and well researched ones, I must say) about how Islam is a wonderful religion, and the United States is wrong, and the Jews control the media, and it's those damn Israelis who want the United States to blow up all of these peaceful Muslims who, evidently, are busy planting flowers and forming literacy groups when their not strapping C-4 to their chests to blow up a daycare center somewhere.

If this is indeed the message I am projecting then my writing needs some tightening up. My position on these questions is as follows.

1. Islam is a basket of religions containing a variety of sects with a range of thought equivalent to that of Christianity. That is to say that fundamentalism and perversion occur in both belief systems in roughly the same proportion.

2. There is a philosophy among U.S. politicians loosely termed "neo-conservatism" which is elitist in nature and is indeed "wrong" or, I would prefer to say, "anti-humanist". This does not reflect the will of the American people and has led to a foreign policy that is predatory and exacerbates the very problems it purports to combat.

3. The media has become "tabloid" in nature and concerns itself with news as "commodity" rather than accuracy. This has left the American people starved of the facts necessary for informed debate.

4. Israel exercises it's influence to coerce the U.S. to degrade Arab states under the mistaken assumption that this will enhance Irael's security. I believe that this aim is better served by Israel addressing the very real grievances that have set the Arab World against it. (I have become a "one State solution" believer as have many commentators, Israeli and Arab, who are closely involved in the conflict. I will develop this thesis in depth, it is not nearly as scary as it might sound.)

5. For the life of me I cannot understand why  "strapping C-4 to their chests" is somehow more heinous than bombing civilians from a B-52.

 How I arrived at these conclusions after a lifetime of support for Israel is described here:

www.brewerstroupe.blogspot.com/

......a blog that a friend and I started after being shocked at the civilian death toll in Lebanon last year. It needs to be read in sequence from the post entitled "Epiphany" at the bottom.

I think this has been a remarkably good discussion. We have strayed a little from the topic but, in my experience, it is not possible to discuss just one aspect of this question in isolation. My thanks to you both.

[angela]

We talk about Israel all the time.  When people say we don't talk about it, what they really mean is they do hear what they want to hear.  They do not agree with some of what is being said.  Usually, they mean they do not hear enough criticism of Israel.  I think Israel is critisized constantly.  But the conclusion that many liberals seem to want, most Americans just don't agree with it.  We do not agree that Israel should be destroyed as a jewish state.  We agree that the Palestinians should get a homeland, but that should not include the destruction of Israel as a jewish state.  It is that belief that frustrates those who claim we don't talk about Israel.  What they mean is they are unhappy because others do not agree with them.

[alqahiri]

The Zionist lobby in the US makes any serious discussion of Israel impossible. Zionists have managed to turn Jews into a sacred cow which must not be touched. The only outcome of this is a society which cowers at the very idea of addressing issues such as Jewish aid to the Nazis, Zionists turning anti-Zionists in to the Nazis, the use of suicide bombers as an effective military tool during the Israeli fight against the British, why Nazis actually hated jews(wealth condensation, etc), Anti-Zionism in the Middle East, the role of Zionists in destabilizing relations between Jews and Muslims in the ME and countless other topics which Americans will label anti-Semitic or will discredit because the Zionist propaganda has been so effective in the nation.

[alqahiri]

...And, the one state solution is the most popular among Israeli intellectuals. Basically, they now accept that the Zionist system of apartheid will implode as did the SOuth African system, with the outcome being one nation where power must be shared.

Israel has never been a Jewish state, which is why the most devout Jews oppose it. The religious concept of Eretz Yisrael refers to the return to the land of Israel after atonement for sins is received. This is to take place upon God's command.

Thus Zionism, as a secular nationalism based on romanticist priniciples, is in direct opposition to this religious concept.

But then most have been so indoctrinated by Zionists that they even do not know what a Jew is anymore.....

ie Jews were never self defined as a people but rather as a community of believers with no allegiance to any perceived geo-political entity. This fueled much animosity towards Jews in the West. The concept was more in tune with Eastern views and this is why many Jews received assylum and flourished. Along those lines for example, Sefaridim today means "Spanish Jews" yet this is a Zionist definition, as Zionists see Jews as a "people" while the original definition, a Jewish one would be "Jews of the Spanish rite" and defined Jews throughout the Mediterranean up to Egypt, where the Mizrahim or Jews of the Egyptian rite began and so on.

Unfortunately society has very short term memory.

[jonesey]

...why Nazis actually hated jews(wealth condensation, etc

Is this the part where you explain that the Nazis had good reason to hate, kill, torture and imprison the Jews? 

[dark_globe]

I have yet to be shown the passage in the Quran that condones suicide or the killing of innocents.

That's because there is no such verse. However, in Sahih Bukhari, the most authoritative collection of ahaadith (sayings of Muhammad), there is this passage:

004.052.258 

Narrated Ibn 'Umar

During some of the Ghazawat of Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.

[jonesey]

I have yet to be shown the passage in the Quran that condones suicide or the killing of innocents.

That's because there is no such verse. However, in Sahih Bukhari, the most authoritative collection of ahaadith (sayings of Muhammad), there is this passage:

004.052.258 

Narrated Ibn 'Umar

During some of the Ghazawat of Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.

Which begs the question, why is suicide bombing such an ingrained part of Islamic culture, and the preferred weapon of Islamic extremests?