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Author Topic: Why can't we talk about Israel?  (Read 89641 times)
pyshnov
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« Reply #180 on: December 29, 2008, 12:03:41 AM »

helpful:
Quote
I would respect your opinions if you would also condemn the indiscriminate rocket attacks that Hamas is permitting, and even promoting. These rockets aren't even targetting the Israeli military! They can not be aimed accurately.

So, the good people should give them better rockets. That will eliminate all the controversy.
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pyshnov
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« Reply #181 on: December 29, 2008, 12:52:22 AM »

Israel existed because Jews abroad supported it.
The stories of the Holocaust helped Israel.

Some of the former supporters of Israel now say:
"Today I end my support of Israel", http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/28/114432/83/489/677860

Some Jews fabricated Holocaust stories:
"Anger, sadness over fabricated Holocaust story",
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081228/ap_on_en_ot/books_holocaust_memoir

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helpful
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« Reply #182 on: December 29, 2008, 10:57:24 PM »

Israel existed because Jews abroad supported it.
The stories of the Holocaust helped Israel.

Some of the former supporters of Israel now say:
"Today I end my support of Israel", http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/28/114432/83/489/677860

Some Jews fabricated Holocaust stories:
"Anger, sadness over fabricated Holocaust story",
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081228/ap_on_en_ot/books_holocaust_memoir



You probably won't listen to this, but if you read the latter story carefully, the fabrication of the story was about how he met his future wife, not about the Holocaust itself. The story expressly says that he was incarcerated in the camp.
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pyshnov
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« Reply #183 on: December 30, 2008, 12:09:54 PM »

helpful, no, the Holocaust is not questioned; the question is how it is exploited. The same doubts were raised about Anne Frank story, it was apparently written by an adult. A lot of money was extracted from public also. These stories now are all checked from all sides before publishing. The trust no longer there.
It is the exploitation of Holocaust that should be stopped. It is now in great part responsible for letting Jews to get away with genocide that is equal to one perpetrated by nazis.
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sciencephd
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« Reply #184 on: December 30, 2008, 12:16:33 PM »

It is now in great part responsible for letting Jews to get away with genocide that is equal to one perpetrated by nazis.

Moderators: is there no limit to the racist garbage that can be spewed in this forum ?
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I just hate it that I constantly have to like everyone and everything. -- moonstone

O, what a hateful feminist concoction!
Jews, communists, "lesbians", feminists and marihuana addicts  --Pyshnov
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« Reply #185 on: December 30, 2008, 12:41:09 PM »

It is now in great part responsible for letting Jews to get away with genocide that is equal to one perpetrated by nazis.

Moderators: is there no limit to the racist garbage that can be spewed in this forum ?

In a strange way, this thread is a lesson.

The thread name is "Why can't we talk about Israel?"  If you read this thread post by post, it answers the question better than any article on the subject ever could.

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Quote from: kedves link=topic=56697.msg1152543#msg1152543
You are among the Pure and Truthful, however small their Number.
My goodness, that was an exceptionally good analysis of the forum.
european
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« Reply #186 on: December 30, 2008, 12:47:17 PM »

It is now in great part responsible for letting Jews to get away with genocide that is equal to one perpetrated by nazis.

Moderators: is there no limit to the racist garbage that can be spewed in this forum ?

In a strange way, this thread is a lesson.

The thread name is "Why can't we talk about Israel?"  If you read this thread post by post, it answers the question better than any article on the subject ever could.

Untenured

I was about to make the same remark.
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sciencephd
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« Reply #187 on: December 30, 2008, 12:52:43 PM »


No, it says nothing about why we cannot talk about Israel.  This is an academic forum. Therefore, "we" does not include every hatemonger that stops by.
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I just hate it that I constantly have to like everyone and everything. -- moonstone

O, what a hateful feminist concoction!
Jews, communists, "lesbians", feminists and marihuana addicts  --Pyshnov
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« Reply #188 on: December 30, 2008, 01:12:25 PM »


No, it says nothing about why we cannot talk about Israel.  This is an academic forum. Therefore, "we" does not include every hatemonger that stops by.

Right, but that's the point.  That's why it says everything about why we can't talk about Israel.

Like most Israel-related debates, there's plenty of heat here but almost no light.  The thread is perfect in that way -- a perfect (and sad) answer to an important question.

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Quote from: kedves link=topic=56697.msg1152543#msg1152543
You are among the Pure and Truthful, however small their Number.
My goodness, that was an exceptionally good analysis of the forum.
jonesey
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« Reply #189 on: December 30, 2008, 05:54:41 PM »

"The very need to evoke the Holocaust when we judge Israeli acts secretly implies that Israel is committing such horrible crimes that only the absolute trump card of the Holocaust can redeem them." -Slavoj Zizek, "Violence"

That said, and Pyshnov's opinions aside, it's become difficult to criticize Israel's policies without being labled "anti-semetic" or racist, making actual dialogue difficult. 

The problem with the United States is that its trying to play both sides in the Middle East.  We support Israel (no matter what, apparently) but we're also backing Syria, Saudi Arabia, and whatever government-of-the-week we've got going in Iraq.  That's not even getting into Afghanistan and many countries in Africa. 
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Jonesey, I know you're a being of sensitivity and refinement.
pyshnov
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« Reply #190 on: December 30, 2008, 08:04:18 PM »

jonesey, frankly, have you lived in Israel? did you speak Hebrew there?

Anyway, for me it was a horrible "experience". I had once to arest, under the barrel of a gun (there were two of us), an Arab who was crossing our small settlement near Jerusalem at about midnight, trying to get from his village to the next village. Called police by radio, they came, searched him and took away.

The thing is - it was all wrong from the beginning, Jews should not have had a State there. For religious Jews, Jerusalem was always OK, but the State made the whole situation wrong. State inevitably meant army, it meant nationalism supported by army. There must be an end to this State; two-States again will mean complete domination of Israel, no difference from what it is now.

The single cause of what everybody calls a "conflict" is the position taken by American Jewry. The voices that are heard only now (Jews not supporting Israel) are coming too late. Nobody with authority told Israelis that they must remain humans, instead, victory after victory was celebrated. And the powerful world outside still demands the next victory. That's wrong.
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pyshnov
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« Reply #191 on: December 30, 2008, 08:21:32 PM »

O, what a piece for this thread:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article693911.ece
It's from the time of war in Lebanon.
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pyshnov
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« Reply #192 on: December 30, 2008, 09:50:28 PM »

And, it appears, as in some previous cases, that Israelis are seeing and printing the truth before the truth is even allowed outside Israel. This is from Haaretz. I give here a Google choice of where you can read it, at least a hundred of Internet sites:
http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22Disinformation%2C+secrecy+and+lies%3A+How+the+Gaza+offensive+came+about%22&btnG=Search
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solly
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« Reply #193 on: January 02, 2009, 06:48:53 AM »

Helpful.

My apologies, I have been indisposed.

Quote
Sorry, you cannot equate the West Bank settlements with cities like Ashdod and Ashkelon.

Let me make it very clear that I have nothing to do with this fight. My interest is the History of Conflict and this helps me to understand the Palestinian point of view. The study of War tends to destroy partisanship and any illusions one might have had with regard to fair dealing between warring factions. 

One of the least understood aspects revolves around Israel's major bone of contention - recognition as a Jewish State.

Palestinians cannot accept this for three reasons. The first is because they were not the only party to reject partition:

“In internal discussion in 1938 [David Ben-Gurion] stated that ‘after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine’...In 1948, Menachem Begin declared that: ‘The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever.” Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle.”

Secondly, Israel has never recognized Palestine:

In an interview with the the Sunday Times Golda Meir, Israel's Prime Minister between 1969-1974, stated in June 1969:

    "It is not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them, they did not exist." (Iron Wall, p. 311)

If one examines the constitution of several important Israeli political parties, one finds a denial of Palestinian statehood and rights. The Likud Party for instance, opposes statehood, as does the Yisrael Beiteinu Party which openly proposes the forcible transference of Arabs.

Thirdly, a condition of recognition insisted upon by Israel is the abandonment of all claims arising out of the expulsion of the indigenous people in 1948. This, to the Palestinians, is utterly unacceptable. They would never have the right to even visit the place where their families had dwelt for centuries nor claim compensation for its loss. The "right of return" for Jews to a place where they have never lived as opposed to the prohibition of Palestinians to enter the land of their forefathers has its ironies.

For these reasons, to the Palestinians, nothing is settled. The original wound has never been treated and all bets are off.

In my view there is some merit in the argument. The U.N. partition plan was never ratified. Israel unilaterally declared statehood before it was put into effect and they did not accept it either by word or deed - Israel has never declared its borders. The Palestinians never accepted it at all. It is therefore a rather moot point as to whether partition is valid at all.

This makes all the territory disputed.

Under the Geneva convention, settling on disputed territory is forbidden and resistance to an occupier is permitted. To the Palestinian, settlers are complicit in the theft of their land and the violence that accompanies it. They are therefore, permitted targets according to the Koran which has very strict proscriptions against the harming of innocents.

I hope this is helpful.
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helpful
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« Reply #194 on: January 02, 2009, 11:42:05 AM »

Helpful.

My apologies, I have been indisposed.

Quote
Sorry, you cannot equate the West Bank settlements with cities like Ashdod and Ashkelon.

 They are therefore, permitted targets according to the Koran which has very strict proscriptions against the harming of innocents.

I hope this is helpful.

No, it isn't helpful. Sending rockets that are not targeted into populated areas will inevitably harm innocents (and thus is against the Koran), just as the Israeli armed forces should not be bombing in populated areas. Both sides are wrong in this.

Quoting historical documents is fine. However, there has been a shift in opinion amongst Labour supporters for example towards a two-state solution that recognizes a Palestinian right to statehood.
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