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[slac_vap]

I had an interesting experience in my moderately difficult, required-for-majors course yesterday.  I had set the students up with an in-class project which included some basic elements as well as some higher-level application that required actual thought.  As to be expected, many of the students had difficulty with the part that required them to think about and apply the material.  I floated around to check on students, reading their first attempts and suggesting ways to expand and improve their interpretations.  On my first round of floating, I read the work of one of my students, a nice enough woman with high anxiety about the subject and a current C in the class.  I gave her some feedback and asked her to rework the application part of the project.  Then I moved on to other students.

When I returned later to check on her work, she was eager to show me her rewrite.  I read her work and noted that she had made some improvements.  I said, "This is better.  You still seem to be having trouble with X and Y, though.  Try thinking about it like [this].  Talk to other students as well, then give it another shot." 

The student looked exasperated and said, "Why can't you ever just tell me I'm great?  Why won't you tell me I'm doing a very good job?  I need more encouragement!"  (Note: I am not paraphrasing here.  These are her actual words.)

I reminded her that I did, in fact, state that I saw improvement.  However, I told her that her work was not yet "very good" or "great," and that I wasn't going to tell her it was when it wasn't.  I tried to explain to her that improvement is a good thing, and that we still have seven weeks left in the semester during which she can move closer to greatness.

Her reply was "Well, I am used to being at the head of the class, and I'm not doing well in here.  I just think you could be nicer and tell me I'm doing great."

That's so frustrating!  I appreciate that the student is upset with her own performance.  She has told me before that I intimidate her and she thinks the class is really hard, so I don't think this is a lack of respect thing.  I recognize that this student really has been working hard (and I have said that to her many times).  But she still has only an adequate- not GREAT!- understanding of the material.  I am amazed that she is so reliant on outside praise that she actually craves hearing me say "You are great!"  But more than that, I am amazed she had no reservations about trying to squeeze it from me.  I've never run across this before.

Thoughts?

 

[prytania3]

How about:

You're great but your work still needs improvement?

[voxprincipalis]

Her reply was "Well, I am used to being at the head of the class, and I'm not doing well in here.  I just think you could be nicer and tell me I'm doing great."

What amazes me is that she knows she is not doing well and yet wants you to tell her she's doing great. This seems a clear contradiction.

Perhaps it's all about word choice. Maybe she interprets "doing great" as "trying hard and making progress" (in other words, a relative interpretation) rather than "has achieved mastery of the material" (an absolute assessment).

You might ask her what "doing great" means to her. I'd be curious to hear the answer.

VP

[dr_stones]

I used to run into this, but no more.  We are a major university in a state with only a couple of big cities, and we get many small town valedictorians . . .

Sections of our field survey class are usually larger than their high schools, if not their school systems.  And, it is a bear, the great general education weedout class, or as it has come to be known over the year, "the GPA buster."  It is a required course for graduation.

I'll get these kids who, after making a mid-"C" on a midterm, are exasperated. "I always made A's in high school" or "I need more feedback like I got in high school" or "why is this a 'C'? I never made C's in high school."

Me, untenured, to a class of 250 in 1998: "This is not your f***ing high school.  Welcome to one of the top research and teaching universities in the world.  Now show me why we should keep you."

My teaching evals slipped a little that term, but the urban legend grows:

"This is not a f***ing high school . . . this is not a f***ing high school  . . . this is not a f***ing high school ."

And smile when you say it. :)

[tamiam]

Did you ever used to watch Northern Exposure?

It was a cute, quirky show with lots of quirky characters. One of the characters was a Native American young man who wanted to be a shaman or something. He was a total space cadet, but every once in a while he would say something really profound, something that captured a very big truth. One little phrase he used has stuck with me for 15 years: "the trap of external reinforcement".

Good students are often the most insecure people around. Getting good grades all through school has robbed them of the ability to be reflective and realistic about their own skills. They can't see any shades of grey - their work is either super or bad. "Adequate but not great" may as well be "a miserable disaster".

People will come onto this thread and rant and rave about how this is all the result of that squishy, BS, "self-esteem" stuff. But this isn't a new phenomenon. My husband is like your student - he never got anything but an A on a report card in his life and he feels like a complete failure whenever he sees anyone with a nicer car/bigger house/whatever than he has. He is self-reflective enough to try very hard not to let that particular insecurity rule his life, but he can't help his ingrained gut reaction. And he desperately craves praise for everything ("oh, you're such a good Dad. yes, none of the other guys are as sensitive as you...) When he is in a certain mood, if he does the dishes and doesn't get a standing ovation, he pouts like a spoiled child.

I think it would help your student if you had a talk with her about this "life challenge". If you want to, that is - it's obviously beyond the scope of your responsibilities as a college level instructor. But sometimes helping people get a little reality-check-self-talk going is really helpful. She's doomed to a life of misery if she's always looking for external validation.

Just my opinion.

[acrimone]

At least...



she's being...



honest.

[kaysixteen]

I am not at all sure it is 'not a lack of respect' thing.  I would probably have interpreted it that way myself.

[yemaya]

I think you could praise her effort, while still letting her know that her work isn't quite there yet.  (Which is what it seems you did.)  If she gets her knickers in a twist, I would ask her, as a genuine question...would telling her that her work was "great" even when it wasn't really make her feel good?  And you can point out that you're there to help her how to learn, but you don't think you're doing her favors by blowing sunshine up her butt.  (Ok, phrased a bit differently than that.)  It's unlikely that she'll have people following her around offering unfettered praise in the real world and she needs to start thinking about that now.  In the real world, people aren't going to tiptoe around her feelings.  If she doesn't start getting a taste of how to manage constructive criticism, she's in for a rude shock later in life.

And yes, like kaysixteen, I wonder about the respect issue - if she respected you, would she be insisting that you "be nicer."

[anthroid]

I want to scream when I see students demanding that professors be "nicer."  I have students telling me that they don't want to be "mean" or anything to me, but...My response is to say "Mean?  I don't understand.  What do you mean by 'mean'?"  By the time we're done they're pretty convinced that, while they aren't being mean, Dr. Anthroid sure is.  (Though maybe not, as I try to do this quite pleasantly and with a bit of puzzlement.)

[acrimone]

How I would deal with this situation:

Student: "Why can't you ever just tell me I'm great?  Why won't you tell me I'm doing a very good job?  I need more encouragement!"

Professor Garcia: "Do you really want me to stand here and lie to you?  Is that really want you think your professor should be doing?"

The conversation then goes one of three ways.

One way:

Student: No, I suppose not.

Professor Garcia: You will get praise if you earn it, and I am here to help you earn it.  But I am not here to lie to you.

Another way:

Student: (breaks down and cries)

Professor Garcia: (goes to get two cups of tea and brings one back to the student and waits for the crying to stop while he grades papers)

The least likely way:

Student: Yes.

Professor Garcia: As you wish.  You're doing great.  Keep up the good work.

[econ_anon]

I've been on the residential life side of this kind of thing.  When students are used to getting constant positive feedback and then they all of a sudden they don't any more.  Their whole world view is shaken.  Usually they recover by Junior year, but it can start really interfering with their studies if they don't and earlier interventions can help them adjust.  One of my roommates in college who truly was a genius also went through a semester where she had similar outburst (in her case it was a combination of home problems and having a truly demoralizing prof who would compliment her on her handwriting instead of her math proofs and would tell her things like, "You didn't really deserve an A but I needed more As in the class so I gave you one anyway" when she was the highest scorer in the classroom by a long-shot...she had the outburst in another prof's study session but I think she was displacing... but I digress).

So... I would have told her that she sounds really stressed and recommended that she talk to the counseling dean or the counseling office (or her residential advisor) to get some help.  College is difficult and she's going to have to learn how to find internal methods of validation.

I bet she's feeling really embarrassed for making an outburst like that and wouldn't have if something weren't wrong.  (Of course, she could also be feeling entitled and b*tchy, but your presentation didn't sound like that... it sounded like a cry for help.)

[gennimom]

Now that is cruel, econ, for a professor to do that. I had one tell me once when I received a 100 on an exam that he thought about taking a few points off just for meanness, but he was joking with me. To be honest, I did tell him to go ahead and put 100 on it when I turned it in, because I knew I was perfect. Hey, I knew my stuff on that one. I've never since been able to say that. *sigh*

[slac_vap]

Thanks, all, for the comments.

I said in my earlier post that I don't think that a lack of respect is at the core of this one.  By that I mean this particular student's tone doesn't generally, and didn't in this particular instance, seem entitled.  I wouldn't even have described it as whiny, exactly.  More than anything, it sounded needy.  And actually, coming across as needy in this way might be even less appealing to me than when students come across as arrogant and entitled. 

But perhaps that is more my issue than the student's.  I just can't stand it when people come across as so needy (a bit of an obstacle for me to deal with, given that I am trained as a psychotherapist).

It bothers me a great deal that this woman, a senior in college, wants me to give her two gold stars for effort regardless of the quality of the work she produces.  I will continue to support her work by letting her know I appreciate her effort.  But I refuse to tell her the content of her work is great.  I suppose all of this adds up to even more reason for her to be intimidated by me, which is not actually what I want.

[francie_]

Slac Vap, I'm interested to know if the other students heard her outburst and how they reacted.  Was there much eye-rolling?  Something tells me this little prima donna might not be too popular.  In that case, she is her own worst enemy and will continue to be so for a very long time.  I don't think I'd reward her with any further praise, especially if she manages to excel in the second half of the semester.

[kaysixteen]

This comment would be tolerable from a freshperson.  From a 'senior', OTOH, it is entirely unacceptable and should be treated as such.  Today, plenty of 21yos are serving in Iraq, and if they cannot load their rifles correctly, their sergeants do not tell them they are 'doing great' anyhow.  You might remind this princess of that.