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[polly_mer]

I'm sympathetic to the grandparent death, but if a student is in such rough shape that they're having this much difficulty getting their act together, it's time to consider a late withdrawl.   And she wants me to ignore a pretty serious pattern of late and unsubmitted work and accept a string of undocumented excuses and let her submit work whenever she gets around to it.

I think some people want to be told to quit since this transfers the responsibility from the student to the professor. I'm not suggesting that you tell the student to quit since I believe students should make that decision on their own.

While I have had a few students over the years who I have told that it was mathematically impossible to pass the class at that point, I have had far more students who ask me "what do you think?" which ends up with me telling them that it doesn't matter what I "think" and then a frank discussion of their grades and what need to happen for them to pass.

Alan

Often the student has internalized the message "Quitting is bad and quitters are horrible people" without the corollary of "Sometimes the best thing to do is cut your losses."  Therefore, I agree with Alan that students want an authority figure to declare "Quitting in this particular situation is your best choice.  Defer to my greater judgement.".

However, sometimes this is the very first time that a student has encountered a situation that really calls for picking the least bad option.  The idea that there are no good options at this point is completely foreign.  "What do you think?" is code for "But, but I want a good option, one where I'm a winner".

[katherineparr]

True. But part of me thinks that some students honestly don't understand the idea that the math is the math. Ie, there isn't really even a decision here.

I had a student this term who listened to me tell him that 35% of his grade was either an F or a zero and then asked me, "but can I still get a B?" he just had no idea. I explained that it was *possible* for him to make a D, but that since the graded work so far was an F, I didn't think it was likely. That, and the fact that he wouldn't take notes or talk in class.

But he seemed incapable of understanding that it wasn't about what I thought, or what he thought, or what his tutor thought. It was just mathematically impossible to achieve the result he "needed."

The worst instance of this I've encountered was a young woman who worked her butt off to earn C's. She just wasn't very good at history. But when she came to see me, she didn't really understand the math, either, and asked how good a grade she could possibly achieve. It turned out that her father was a straight-A sort of person, and a graduate of the same college. She got in on an athletic scholarship plus her legacy status, and she was totally lost. Her father, meanwhile, pressured her constantly to be an A student. So she felt that nothing she did was worthwhile because the only metric he cared about was the final grade.

Blech. What a nice girl, and what an unfortunate failure of communication. She loved her dad, but she was miserable.

Anyway, I agree with Polly and Alan in general. But I wish people learned better math in high school.

[polly_mer]

Anyway, I agree with Polly and Alan in general. But I wish people learned better math in high school.

Well, I think I can safely speak for the two of us when I say "We also wish people learned better math in high school".

[daniel_von_flanagan]

Well, I think I can safely speak for the two of us when I say "We also wish people learned better math in high school".

I wish they would learn math better in high school, even if it was worser math that they learned better. - DvF

[scheherazade]

True. But part of me thinks that some students honestly don't understand the idea that the math is the math. Ie, there isn't really even a decision here.

I had a student this term who listened to me tell him that 35% of his grade was either an F or a zero and then asked me, "but can I still get a B?" he just had no idea. I explained that it was *possible* for him to make a D, but that since the graded work so far was an F, I didn't think it was likely. That, and the fact that he wouldn't take notes or talk in class.

But he seemed incapable of understanding that it wasn't about what I thought, or what he thought, or what his tutor thought. It was just mathematically impossible to achieve the result he "needed."

The worst instance of this I've encountered was a young woman who worked her butt off to earn C's. She just wasn't very good at history. But when she came to see me, she didn't really understand the math, either, and asked how good a grade she could possibly achieve. It turned out that her father was a straight-A sort of person, and a graduate of the same college. She got in on an athletic scholarship plus her legacy status, and she was totally lost. Her father, meanwhile, pressured her constantly to be an A student. So she felt that nothing she did was worthwhile because the only metric he cared about was the final grade.

Blech. What a nice girl, and what an unfortunate failure of communication. She loved her dad, but she was miserable.

Anyway, I agree with Polly and Alan in general. But I wish people learned better math in high school.

Sadly, this reminds me of another high-school teaching story.

During a professional development (yeah, right), an asst. principal asked everyone, "Let's say you have a student who has an F for the first three tests, but he then gets an A on the last test.  What final grade do you give?"  (Of course, this is assuming these are the only grades and measures, and that all tests are of equal weight.)  Apparently, the correct answer was supposed to be "B", because the student showed improvement.  I kid you not.  In many high schools, math has nothing to do with the final grade.

[grasshopper]

I wish I'd known that in high school. I would have slacked off a lot more.

[slac_vap]

Dear Professor Last Name

I am writing with some concerns about the upcoming exam on Monday.  Due to participation on the [athletics team], I have missed an extreme amount of classes, especially over the course of the last three weeks. Anyways, my worry is that I have missed too much class to have a chance at being successful on the upcoming exam, and the [athletics team] absences are unavoidable.  I was wondering if you have time if you could shoot me an email over the weekend with particular topics from class sessions that I should be sure to look at for the test.  Ultimately, it would be ideal if we could meet in person but I have been on the road so much with [athletics team] and my schedule has conflicted with yours.  Is there anyway we could meet Monday to discuss issues on the exam, and I could maybe take it Tues. or Wed?  If not, I understand, because I have not done a very good job about communicating this issue to you.  I just would like to be able to go over some of the in class material with you that I was unable to obtain before the test. 

Sincerely,

Student

Hey, look at it this way:
1) This email has an appropriate greeting and closing,
2) the overall tone is polite,
3) and he's even admitted some personal responsibility (see bolded part).

[onlyanne]

It's so nice to see that today's students still appreciate the classics: 

"Is there any extra credit possible?"

That's the entire email - no salutation, no valediction, no name. 

[grasshopper]

"Is there any extra credit possible?"

Ha ha!

"No."

[yemaya]

Yeah.  This student isn't a first-year.  After her disappearance we sat down and discussed what needed to happen, but then she pulled this business with her paper not two weeks after that.  The reality is that her chance of passing the course are really slim.  She probably should have either dropped the course or have taken a mental health leave from the college if she's struggling.  It is painful to lose a member of the family, but one of the lessons of life is that you take a few days or a week to let it hurt and then you just have to go on as best you can and seek counseling, spiritual guidance and/or whatever resources might help deal with the grief.  I don't mean to sound unkind, but if she functions (or fails to) as she's done in my class in a work setting, she stands a good chance of losing that job.

The worst instance of this I've encountered was a young woman who worked her butt off to earn C's. She just wasn't very good at history. So she felt that nothing she did was worthwhile because the only metric he cared about was the final grade.

I have one of those too, but she is not nice.  She's a wholly unwilling to take responsibility for asking questions when she's confused or to understand what is being asked of her.  And she throws crying temper tantrums when she doesn't get her way. 

[polly_mer]

The worst instance of this I've encountered was a young woman who worked her butt off to earn C's. She just wasn't very good at history. So she felt that nothing she did was worthwhile because the only metric he cared about was the final grade.

I have one of those too, but she is not nice.  She's a wholly unwilling to take responsibility for asking questions when she's confused or to understand what is being asked of her.  And she throws crying temper tantrums when she doesn't get her way. 

I prescribe tissues and a calm "Are you sure that this is the way you want to handle the situation?" for your tantrum thrower.

[gennimom]

Sadly, this reminds me of another high-school teaching story.

During a professional development (yeah, right), an asst. principal asked everyone, "Let's say you have a student who has an F for the first three tests, but he then gets an A on the last test.  What final grade do you give?"  (Of course, this is assuming these are the only grades and measures, and that all tests are of equal weight.)  Apparently, the correct answer was supposed to be "B", because the student showed improvement.  I kid you not.  In many high schools, math has nothing to do with the final grade.

I can remember a time when our principal told us that it didn't matter what the actual grade on an assignment or test was, we were to give no lower than a 50. The idea was that, with a 50, the student had a chance of crawling out of the hole. The problem I had was, no matter what grade you gave, a student that made 20s or 50s was probably NOT going to pass. Quite often, they made that low because they didn't care, not because they couldn't. My less abled students usually tried their hardest to make that D or C. The F students were usually quite capable but were just biding their time until they could legally drop out.

[yemaya]

I prescribe tissues and a calm "Are you sure that this is the way you want to handle the situation?" for your tantrum thrower.

That's exactly what I did.  And she took offense.  Apparently, she believes that this is an appropriate and professsional way for a 21-year old - especially an aspiring med school student - to handle disappointment.  I decided that it wasn't worth another tantrum to explain to her that this behavior is going to make it difficult for her to ever be taken seriously in any graduate program.  (Certainly, if I were one of her major profs. and saw her behave like this I would be hard-pressed to write her a recommendation for grad school even if she had the grades.)  All I can do is to make it clear that tantrums aren't going to change her grades.  I'm also keeping photocopies of everything I turn back to her so that she can't claim that she doesn't understand what was asked of her or tries to argue that her grades weren't justified.  Grade complaints have centered around the classic "I've worked very hard and deserve an A" and "why do you make me feel stupid."  (The things that were missing from the exam were dates of major historic events - and it was an open-book exams, so I was hardly being unreasonable.)

[polly_mer]

"why do you make me feel stupid." 

Did you answer "Because I hate you"?

It sounds like you are doing everything right, Yemaya.  This student is in for a rough life if being unable to do the easy part of an open book test makes her feel stupid and she blames you for her feelings.

I wonder if this student has seen a medical show, spoken with a medical student, or read anything about the medical school process.  I get the impression that medical school training primarily consists of "You newbies are stupid.  Learn faster or you will kill someone."  That doesn't sound like a good environment for this snowflake.

[yemaya]

I wonder if this student has seen a medical show, spoken with a medical student, or read anything about the medical school process.  I get the impression that medical school training primarily consists of "You newbies are stupid.  Learn faster or you will kill someone."  That doesn't sound like a good environment for this snowflake.

I very much doubt it and no, I don't think that med school or really any substantive graduate-level degree program is an appropriate place for snowflake.  All I can do is not enable her manipulative b.s. and quietly reign curses on the faculty who must have enabled this behavior - because clearly if she's still doing it as a junior, it must have worked well for her.