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[kaysixteen]

There are Christian churches that do not even observe Easter, though not as many now as in the 16th-18th century era, the time when Puritans would punish people who observed Christmas.

I spoke unclearly when I noted that no evangelicals observe 'Holy Week'.  What I meant is that it is not historic evangelical/ fundamentalist/ baptist practice to do so, as anyone who knows the history of such sects will acknowledge.  200 years ago I suspect virtually no Baptist churches in this country would have had a Good Friday anything.  Whether it is a good thing or bad that some have adopted such practices is not a debate worth having here.

[jonesey]

There are Christian churches that do not even observe Easter, though not as many now as in the 16th-18th century era, the time when Puritans would punish people who observed Christmas.

I spoke unclearly when I noted that no evangelicals observe 'Holy Week'.  What I meant is that it is not historic evangelical/ fundamentalist/ baptist practice to do so, as anyone who knows the history of such sects will acknowledge.  200 years ago I suspect virtually no Baptist churches in this country would have had a Good Friday anything.  Whether it is a good thing or bad that some have adopted such practices is not a debate worth having here.

This is more along the lines of what I meant.  For the evangelicals I know personally, Easter was always celibrated, but Good Friday was pretty much just another Friday. 

K16, I agree about many Catholics not knowing evangelical history, however, with all the schisms arising out of the Millerite "meltdown" during The Great Awakening it's hard for anyone without a DivM to keep track of it all.  : )

[larryc]

I must drive past twenty different kinds of Protestant churches on my way to work each day--and it is a short drive in the country. There is nothing more American than founding your own church.

[infopri]

I'm afraid I have to chime in on the wine-at-the-seder discussion.  Vox, you're quite right that the religious call for four cups of wine at the seder do not require a student to get drunk.  Nevertheless:

1) One of the religious requirements incumbent upon the host(s) of a seder is to invite others who are not part of the family--which can include non-Jews.  The seder I attended this year was the first I've been to in some 25 years that did not have Christians in attendance.  By attending, your student enabled his host to fulfill a mitzvah (good deed).

2) You said:

However, he should have thought carefully before accepting the invitation, if he would not be able to drive back afterwards.

If this was the student's first seder, he might not have known in advance about the wine consumption. 

3) While the allowed "minimum" glass of wine may be only 3 ounces (I'd never encountered that factoid before), most seder wine glasses hold considerably more.  A non-Jew who had never attended a seder before might have, through his ignorance, felt "obligated" to fill up the glass (as his hosts may have been doing) so as to be respectful of what he thought was traditional or necessary.  Non-Jews, of course, have no religious obligation to drink any of the wine, let alone a full glass for each of the ritual four cups, but your student no doubt was trying to follow (what he perceived as) the custom.

4) You mentioned that the student is underage.  That suggests a lack of experience (and perhaps maturity).  He might not have anticipated that four glasses of wine might knock him for a loop.  (I suppose, alternatively, he actually might have hoped for such a result, but that's another matter.)  After all, it's "religious," so I won't get drunk, right??

5) In addition to the ritual four cups drunk during the seder service, there may have been wine flowing during the actual meal.  So he might have had substantially more than four glasses of wine.

I offer all of this not to excuse your student.  I think he was probably wise not to drive home after the seder (and/or wise of the host not to let him), but that does not get him off the hook for not making the drive in the morning, in time for a 10:00 class.  I'm just suggesting that it's not all that surprising that the student would think (or hope) that he was offering a valid excuse.

[voxprincipalis]

Thanks, infopri. And since we all seem to agree that the student missing the class in the morning is not excused by this, I feel free to raise some further questions about responsibility. Please understand that I'm not snarking at you, just further trying to clarify some issues.

If you are a host, inviting underage people to a seder, particularly those who (as you point out) may not be familiar with the tradition, it's really your responsibility (IMHO) to make sure that you don't set them up to get drunk. This includes limiting the quantity and diluting it with kosher grape juice.

Wine that's consumed as a part of the social aspect of dinner but not part of the ritualized aspect is absolutely not covered by the "I drank wine at a seder" argument as far as I'm concerned.

And, student may be underage as far as drinking goes, but he's legally an adult. He makes his own decisions.

Regardless of whether it's the student's fault or the host's fault, it doesn't become my problem that he missed class. He chose to go, he chose to drink, he chose not to come back for class. (As I've said in other situations, it's nobody's fault that an earthquake happened, but that doesn't mean Granny's china doesn't get broken.) Choices, choices, choices.

VP

[infopri]

If you are a host, inviting underage people to a seder, particularly those who (as you point out) may not be familiar with the tradition, it's really your responsibility (IMHO) to make sure that you don't set them up to get drunk. This includes limiting the quantity and diluting it with kosher grape juice.

Actually, children are a big (almost central) part of the seder, and many of the rituals are performed specifically by the children present:  The youngest child present asks The Four Questions (a critical part of the service), the service includes a description of the Four (types of) Children (with an injunction to teach each type of Child about the Exodus from Egypt), the children (usually those under 13) must hunt for and ransom the hidden afikomen (a particular, special piece of matzah) before dessert can be served, etc.  So it is customary and considered desirable to have children of all ages at the table during the service.  And yes, they drink kosher grape juice.  But just try serving that to a college student!  (Even the high-schoolers protest.)

That said, I agree that the hosts have the duty to try.

Wine that's consumed as a part of the social aspect of dinner but not part of the ritualized aspect is absolutely not covered by the "I drank wine at a seder" argument as far as I'm concerned.

I agree with you 100 percent there.  I was suggesting only that it all might have "blended" in your student's mind under the category of "seder wine."

And, student may be underage as far as drinking goes, but he's legally an adult. He makes his own decisions.

No argument from me.  And we all know how wise the decisions of freshmen often are.

Regardless of whether it's the student's fault or the host's fault, it doesn't become my problem that he missed class. He chose to go, he chose to drink, he chose not to come back for class.

Hear, hear!  Especially the "he chose not to come back for class" part.

(As I've said in other situations, it's nobody's fault that an earthquake happened, but that doesn't mean Granny's china doesn't get broken.)

I never heard that saying before (maybe because I've never lived in earthquake country?), but I love it!  May I use it?

[sirrah]

VP, your student sounds a little like one I had who missed a test (he came rushing in as I was packing up to leave the classroom).  My make-up policy is that students have to do an essay exam the same day as the final and he argued that he should be able to take the regular test.  He explained he was driving back from Easter from his parents' home (3-4 hours away) and had a flat tire.  Now, the problem was the test was given during a Tuesday 12:30-1:45 slot.  Basically, this student had decided he needed a 4-day weekend and that he'd start back with just enough time to make it to class.  When this didn't work out it became my problem.  He was very indignant when I tried telling him that the excused holiday was only Friday-Sunday.  Sheesh.   

[cc_alan]

VP, your student sounds a little like one I had who missed a test (he came rushing in as I was packing up to leave the classroom).  My make-up policy is that students have to do an essay exam the same day as the final and he argued that he should be able to take the regular test.  He explained he was driving back from Easter from his parents' home (3-4 hours away) and had a flat tire.  Now, the problem was the test was given during a Tuesday 12:30-1:45 slot.  Basically, this student had decided he needed a 4-day weekend and that he'd start back with just enough time to make it to class.  When this didn't work out it became my problem.  He was very indignant when I tried telling him that the excused holiday was only Friday-Sunday.  Sheesh.   

And to quote VP- "choices, choices, choices".

I have this discussion with students every year.

"But it wasn't my fault."

It's not about fault. It's about *responsibility*.

Alan

[infopri]

It's not about fault. It's about *responsibility*.

Excellent point, cc_alan--and one that escapes most students.

[grasshopper]

My reply to a student trying to bully me into giving her a higher grade:

The midterm mark you earned was abysmal, probably because you arrived 45 minutes late, and had only attended class sporadically. You also have earned low participation and weekly writing marks. There is very little chance that you will earn higher than a D in this class, and that only if you submit an excellent final paper.


The student's response:

My midterm I did arrive 30 minutes late and I assure you that If in fact I had arrived on time I would have wrote the same amount of information that I wrote because I was only maybe a paragraph short of what I wanted to say. I write really fast a 8 paged essay takes me three hours to write so 45 minutes is the amount of time i usually take to write a whole exam. As i told you before I have a minor in English and I am used to writing a lot. Usually I don't ask for my mid terms back or even look at them but this time I would like to know if you still have it because i'm sure I wrote atleast a book full of information that should have counted for something. What mark do you have for me that was recorded.


Oh... well, if you have a minor in English...

[merce]

The student's response:

My midterm I did arrive 30 minutes late and I assure you that If in fact I had arrived on time I would have wrote the same amount of information that I wrote because I was only maybe a paragraph short of what I wanted to say. I write really fast a 8 paged essay takes me three hours to write so 45 minutes is the amount of time i usually take to write a whole exam. As i told you before I have a minor in English and I am used to writing a lot. Usually I don't ask for my mid terms back or even look at them but this time I would like to know if you still have it because i'm sure I wrote atleast a book full of information that should have counted for something. What mark do you have for me that was recorded.

Holy Moley! This should be framed and put up on your wall. Amazing!


Oh... well, if you have a minor in English...

[cc_alan]

Oh... well, if you have a minor in English...

Shame on you, grasshopper.

By the way, I've been meaning to ask you to grab the stone from my hand...

Alan

[scienceprof]

So this thread has gotten way off of student emails, and I hate to contribute to that, but I wanted to respond to K16:

I am an evangelical, and my church has celebrated Holy Week all my life.  Even if you say that Baptist traditionally have not (the Baptist church across the street has changed their marquee daily regarding the special services  - yesterday it said "Maudy Thursday Communion 5 pm", BTW), Baptists are not the only evangelicals.

Also, not all evangelicals are fundamentalists.

[dr_evil]

Shame on you, grasshopper.

By the way, I've been meaning to ask you to grab the stone from my hand...

Alan

LOL!  Thanks for today's laugh, Alan.

[cc_alan]

Shame on you, grasshopper.

By the way, I've been meaning to ask you to grab the stone from my hand...

Alan

LOL!  Thanks for today's laugh, Alan.

;)

 I live to serve!

Great inspiration can be found in old tv shows. Oh, and Yoda.

Alan