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[adhoc]

It has always been my understanding that "Anglo-Saxon" refers to people, white or otherwise, who trace their ancestry to the British Isles and/or Germany. Scotish Americans, for example, are a subset of that group.  Also, "WASP" is not redundant, since "AS" does not imply white. 

However, CBL, the work you cite appears to be talking about a specific group of people.  Is it possible that the individuals being discussed were, in fact, Anglo-Saxon and that term is being used to differentiate them from other whites?

[adhoc]

WASP stands for White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.  And is a name I find fairly offensive.  Probably as offensive as the n word is to others.

What do you find offensive about "WASP" and how can you possibly see that offense as being on par with "the N word"?

[gennidad]

read the posts.  It is explained there. 

[adhoc]

read the posts.  It is explained there. 

If that were true, I would not have asked the question.  The explanation was offered on your behalf that you are offended by "WASP" because you are not one.  If you are being called a WASP, I can see how that could irritate you.  But offense seems like an over reaction, unless I am missing something important.  If I were, I would expect that you would at least be willing to say what that is.

Beyond that, to my knowledge, that term has never been used in a way even approaching the "N word" so I really don't see how that comparison is reasonable.

[gennidad]

I only find the word truly offensive when used as a generic for people who look white.  The same as a lot of people seem to want to use the n word as a generic for people who look black.  Epically when applied to myself.  I look white(really well tanned), I think of myself as white, but I am not a WASP. 

I is one of the few things that can make me angry when used to describe me.  And that is really irrational considering some of the other names I have been called in my lifetime.  I guess it comes from the fact that it is accurate up to a point.  I am very proud of my heritage and it didn't all come from the Angles or the Saxons. 

I am not saying anyone has to stop using it.  Just don't limit me and who I am by calling me one.  That's all.  It is not a real biggie to me unless someone is trying to bait me by using it.

[adhoc]

OK, well thanks for explaining.  I personally only use it when I mean it literally -- white and Anglo-Saxon and protestant.

As for the N word, I see your point; however, I don't believe that it is used as a simple reference to Blacks.  It is a perversion of the word "Negro," an otherwise perfectly legitimate word, and is used specifically to demean.  I can't speak to your personal experience, but from what you describe, it does not sound as if "WASP" is being used in the same way.  If you think it is, well, you are in a better position to judge that than I am.

[crazybatlady]

With the exception of those who are reclaiming the word, n***** is a term used by people in power to denigrate other people, usually other people who have been historically dehumanized, enslaved, and disenfranchised.

Calling a white person a WASP is in no way similar to calling a black person a n*****.  WASP is a term that is used to ridicule, not denigrate, people who are wealthy and privileged.

Sorry, the equation doesn't fly.

Edited to add: Interestingly, the program refuses to let me write the word n*****.  It puts the *s in.  Notice it doesn't put * in WASP.

[prytania3]

WASP stands for White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.  And is a name I find fairly offensive.  Probably as offensive as the n word is to others.

What do you find offensive about "WASP" and how can you possibly see that offense as being on par with "the N word"?

I took an undergraduate sociology class with the professor who coined the term WASP. Professor E. Digby Balzell, author of The Protestant Establishment, The Protestant Establishment Revisited, and "The Philadelphia Gentlemen It was a great class.

WASP, however, is not a pejorative term. You may take offense to it, but that does not make it universally offensive. Personally, I'm offended by the word, Google, but that does not make Google an offensive word--even if I, Prytania, think it should be.

[dogstar]

What time period is it discussing? The author could be trying to be accurate to the terms used at the time.

It sounds like 1890s language or thereabouts ---- Teddy Roosevelt and a lot of his contemporaries used "white" to refer _exclusively_ to Anglo-Saxon, British heritage Americans.

  This is correct. Irish, Italians, Eastern Europeans and all the other European "ethnics" weren't generally classified as "white" until after WWII, IIRC. Until then, Anglo-Saxon usually meant someone of specifically English ancestry-- I'm not even sure it included Scots, and it certainly didn't include Irish.

There was also a lot of "race science" and eugenics discourse around this time differentiating between the "most superior" Europeans ---- i.e. those from Britain ---- and, let's say, "less superior but still white" Europeans, like the descendants of Dutch, French and German immigrants. Southern and Eastern Europeans, like the Irish, were _not_ considered "really white" at this time --- thus the debate about whether America could really be a "melting pot" and assimilate these strange, frightening immigrants. (Black people, Asians and Latinas/os were never eligible for the discourse of the melting pot as it originally was conceived.)

  And to confuse the matter even more, during this time period not even just being from Britain was enough. The racial scientists of the day wanted to ascertain precisely *which* of the inhabitants of Britain could be traced to the "superior" Germanic immigrants--- the ones to which the English language traces its roots. On the basis of cranial measurements and other criteria, they decided there was a "Celtic" type remaining in Britain that differed from the more "Teutonic" or "Aryan" type. Thus many in the British Isles, for example, the Welsh, were classified right next to the Irish as being very low on the racial hierarchy, even though they lived in Britain. So to be called "Anglo-Saxon" during this time period was to indicate descent from one of the Teutonic peoples who had invaded Britain and gave it its language and allegedly "superior" culture long ago. It indicated connection with the larger spread of "Aryan" races and alleged cultural values and so forth. During this time period, it absolutely was *not* used interchangeably with "white". Madison Grant's "The Passing of the Great Race" is one of the "classic" texts of American racial "science" written during this time that you can look at if you want to learn more about how these sorts of classifications worked at the time.

quote author=trystero49 link=topic=29875.msg402654#msg402654 date=1160702876]
And, to just make things even more confusing, in the Southwest, like New Mexico, the term "Anglo" was and is used instead of white and seems to be connected to the Spanish Conquistadors for some reason. Since I do not "qualify" as Anglo-Saxon according to the above definition, it was always a pet peeve of mine to be called an Anglo when I lived in the Southwest.
[/quote]
 
  Well, in the Southwest, as in much of the scholarship on the History of the American West and such, "Anglo" is used in ways that mean "(racially white) American". Remember that the Southwest, and much of the West in general, was part of Mexico until the end of the US' war with Mexico. From the perspective of Mexicans living there already as Americans streamed in, the Americans were foreigners and Anglo denoted this general difference from "Mexican". But it also served to distinguish Americans from both Mexicans and Native Americans. So, much of the scholarship on the West picks up this terminology, because it is useful when dealing with a frontier what was in fact so very multicultural. I'm not sure if "Anglo" in this sense includes African-American settlers or not. While still American, they were also clearly not identical with the "whitening" mission that American settlement of the West meant.
[/quote]

  At any rate, it looks to me like the use of "Anglo-Saxon" in the OP's example is a bit unwarranted and confusing. I probably would've just stuck to "Anglo," since its meaning is fairly well-established in writing about the West. I think probably the author meant "Anglo" but was looking for something fancier to write. If she meant "Anglo-Saxon," then I'd say she had a bit of clarifying left to do.

[larryc]

I think Trystero has it.  You see the term Anglo-Saxon a lot in the late-19th and early 20th century, when it was used to distinguish white Americans of English and northern European ancestry from the "new immigrants," swarthy Catholics from southern and eastern Europe.  Another contemporary phrase was "old stock Americans."

[crazybatlady]

(Larry!  I've been waiting for your word on this.)

So why would a scholar in 2006 be using the term apparently as synonymous with white?

[larryc]

CBL: What is the article?

[crazybatlady]

Shoot, it's at the office.

It's about the construction of masculinity in 19th C narratives by Alaskan mountain climbers.

Trystero suggested that the author might be using the same terminology as the mountain climbers did, but I can't find a correlation between the m.c.'s ancestry and the use of the Anglo-Saxon label. 

I wonder if it could be the mentality of the A-S more so than the actual A-S heritage.  Would that make any sense?

[gennidad]

CBL I think you have it right about the author referring to the mentality instead of the heritage. 

As for how WASP is used and the system censoring it, WASP does have many meanings and uses. However, it has been used around me to both ridicule and demean.  Of course, that is just my personal experience.  It really offends me because it makes the assumption that because I am white I didn't have to work to be where I am.  I came from a rural lower/ middle class family where my father was gone off to work more than at home, and where at any given time we would eat cornbread and tomato gravy because it was all we had.  Excuse me if I become offended by someone trying to ridicule me and dismiss who I am simply out of unthinking racial prejudice.

[twisted_scripture]

WASP, however, is not a pejorative term. You may take offense to it, but that does not make it universally offensive.

But...I don’t think I have ever seen it used other than derisively.  It certainly doesn’t rise to the level of other racial or ethnic epithets, but I would no more use it in polite conversation, than I would use JAP or Jewish American Princess.