next »

[norah]

Can anyone say if the fields of earth sciences are *as* different from my own humanities field as to justify the author and her husband's actions on the market?  Certainly in my own experience, a junior hire can't make the kinds of hiring demands that they were making and would probably be ignored or rejected for doing so.  Just imagining someone saying "hire my wife or I walk" at the assistant professor level makes me chuckle.  99% of departments will say "candidate #2, please."

[bioguy]

In my field (molecular biology) junior hires can make those kind of requests and are very often accommodated.  I was struck by how poorly they were treated by the engineering chair.  If the couldn't manage a spousal hire, the chair should have said so up-front.

The author thinks that being in such different fields will help their joint hire prospects.  I'm not sure that is the case.  They might be too far apart.  I could easily imagine that at many universities, engineering and geography would be in different colleges and answer to different deans.  Depending on the financial structure of the university, it could be very difficult to convince a department under a different dean to accommodate a spousal hire.

[onlyanne]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with my esteemed colleague bioguy.  It's been my observation that spousal hire issues work out a lot better if they're part of the dialog pre-offer.  There also something about the language she uses that makes it sound like it wasn't a request - more like a demand.

Also, most of the cases I've seen the spousal hire is in the same department (or a closely related one) and usually at relatively large institutions.   

I agree, though, that if the account is accurate the hiring chair could have been a lot more forthright.  A quick reply, "we don't do spousal hires" or at least "this is very unusual for us" would have clued the couple in.

[zharkov]

I think emailing the list of "requests" was a key mistake.  If you want something outside of the standard package, then you need to ask in person or on the phone:  "Pat, I really appreciate your offer and look forward to working at Pulse College.  And I really need your help in finding my spouse a job.  What is the process for spousal hires at your school?"
 

[busyslinky]

Anyone can make any demands they want.

But, it should have been made clear that the spousal hire rejection is a deal breaker.  The Dean could only do so much and needed to hear explicitly, early on in the process along with specific salary negotiation that the Spousal hire is a very critical criteria and not a throwaway comment.

It was not clear that the communication lines between them was very open on this part of the negotiation.  I think the husband is at fault in this situation.  This is one of those situations where it should have been mentioned very early in the process, pre-offer.

[putnam_phd]

I'm really interested in the reactions here to today's First Person article.  I'm a recent PhD (currently in a postdoc), and my fiance is at the same point in his academic career (in a very different department).  I've solicited a lot of advice about how to deal with the two body problem in interviews, etc -- especially in terms of when to bring it up.  I've heard both the reaction (reflected in this thread) that "springing" this issue on a department post-offer is not very nice, nor does it give them a lot of flexibility or time in coming up with something -- which I understand.  However, I've also been told very strongly that as a junior person (while I like to think that I have potential, I'm not an already established star in my field!) I'm easily replaceable by someone else on the list...and if it's clear pre-offer that I have additional "baggage" (e.g., a second body), that will act as a strike against me versus someone else who is unattached.  (As a side note, I did receive a tenure-track offer two years ago, and didn't raise the second body issue until after I got the offer...they were very displeased, and ultimately completely unhelpful -- and also told me [!!!] that if they had known ahead of time that I had a partner in academia they would have chosen someone else!  Needless to say, I was relieved to tell them "Thank you kindly, but no.")

In any case, I'm very interested in advice or experiences others have had in terms of when to raise this issue.  In an ideal world, I'd like to think that it could be casually brought up earlier in the process (not as a demand, but as an FYI about my personal situation)...but, perhaps cynically, I feel very concerned about that, especially as a woman applying for jobs in a male-dominated field. 

[busyslinky]

Telling them upfront may get you eliminated, but why waste their time and your time if you know that you won't take an offer without your spouse and they won't make you an offer if it requires finding a position for your spouse?  If that was a deal breaker it should be mentioned very early on.  If it is negotiable then wait till later.

[zharkov]

In any case, I'm very interested in advice or experiences others have had in terms of when to raise this issue.  In an ideal world, I'd like to think that it could be casually brought up earlier in the process (not as a demand, but as an FYI about my personal situation)...but, perhaps cynically, I feel very concerned about that, especially as a woman applying for jobs in a male-dominated field. 

Not to discourage discussion, but the issue has been brought up before, so you might want to do a search....

Also, IMHO, it helps to read Getting to Yes and try the principled negotiation approach.  Thus make your interests clear -- finding a job for a spouse -- and ask about options.  Such options may include a TT spousal hire, a visiting hire, an admin job, an adjunct job, or even a job lead at another nearby school or even in industry.  Maybe all of these are not acceptable to you, but you're exploring options, not making commitments.  According to the principled negotiation framework, the "first person's" mistake was negotiating on the basis of positions (find spouse a tt spousal hire job) rather than interests -- my spouse needs a job, let's explore options, please help me out, we can both win if we are creative, etc.



 

[sibyl]

Books on negotiating your salary say that the optimal time to ask for stuff is between the time that they offer you the job and the time that you accept; it's at that point where your leverage is greatest and they are most eager to get to "yes."  But a spousal hire is not in the same category as lab equipment -- both because it's not simple to provide and because, y'know, your spouse is a human being.  The hubby should certainly have mentioned something about his wife before the offer, both to the chair and to the dean or the provost.  (If he's tenured, he can make it a demand at this early stage; if he's junior, he should at least say, "I'd be very interested in a position for my wife; what would be involved in that?")  He should then have mentioned it separately when he received the offer, rather than including it in a laundry list of startup requests, especially since it is a deal-breaker.  And while I agree the chair should not have let the issue languish, the husband should have pressed harder to get answers more quickly, including offering to speak directly with the dean or provost.

Now, it seems that the writer and her husband are in a position to be choosy, so this may be no skin off their nose.  But their actions and attitude, at least as it comes across in this article, suggest that they are excessively interested in their needs and don't much care about the possibility that the institution may have needs beyond theirs.  Personally, I wouldn't behave this way as a faculty member; and as a dean I wouldn't be sad to "lose out" on people who seem to have so little regard for the rest of the institution.

[doctormommy]

Well, I don't have a two-body problem so I've tried not to think about it too much because the idea of losing a job to somebody who is less qualified but married to somebody else another department is trying to hire just makes me queasy.

At the enormous well respected research institute where I'm finishing my postdoc, we are generally advised (in job search seminars, etc) to be up front about the 2 body problem if we have one. A spousal hire is too large a demand to make at the last minute. I agree that in this couple's case they should have brought it up early, especially given the timelines. If Environmental science is a couple of months ahead of Engineering, then by the time Engineering had made a job offer, Environmental Science would have probably already hired its Environmental Scientist (assuming the University had both departments with openings).

It seems like this couple should keep that in mind. The environmental scientist is probably better able to negotiate a position for her Engineer spouse than the other way around.

I've had one interview this year. I volunteered the information that yes, I am married, yes I have a child and no, my husband does not work so they would know that a. No, I don't have a 2 body problem and b. They need to pay me enough to support my family on my own.

[reluctant]

I don't get it.  If you're supposed to mention the desire for a spousal hire at the interview (or sometime pre-offer), why is it so taboo to talk about marital status at the interview?  It seems to me the point of avoiding that talk ibefore making an offier is so that the committee does not take it into consideration. Then once they've selected the top candidate they can decide if the person is worth meetings all demands, requests, etc.

I have to admit, as a single person seeking a TT job, I didn't feel a lot of sympathy for the couple.  I'm hoping to get a job based on my credentials, and the author appeared near indignant that she did not get a job based on her husband's credentials.  It is a tough situation, but not too surprising.

[doctormommy]

It is illegal for the hiring committee to ask if you are married or to make a decision based on your marital status or your likelihood of needing maternity leave.

However, I don't think it IS taboo to talk about marital status during the interview, but it probably depends on the situation. For example, in my case I am married and have a child but my husband does not work. Therefore my marital and parental status is irrelevant to the search process and there is no reason to bring it up. I choose to bring it up voluntarily because it's hard not to brag about your kid when somebody else is doing it too (but I don't let it take up too much of the interview). There are other reasons too, like demonstrating I'd be a good role model for young students who wan't to be scientists but are worried about not being able to have a family, etc.

IF a spousal hire is an absolute requirement for somebody to take a position, then the search committee needs to know that up front. It's not something that can be negotiated later, like more lab space or a parking spot. If it is not an absolute requirement but would be nice if they could work it out, then that is something you could bring up during negotiations.

[just_me]

The author thinks that being in such different fields will help their joint hire prospects.  I'm not sure that is the case.  They might be too far apart.  I could easily imagine that at many universities, engineering and geography would be in different colleges and answer to different deans.  Depending on the financial structure of the university, it could be very difficult to convince a department under a different dean to accommodate a spousal hire.

That was my first reaction to that piece as well. I think this article demonstrates how little that most faculty-to-be know about university politics and administration. Though this year's fiscal outlook is better for most universities, very few institutions have stray faculty lines sitting around and gathering dust. Expecting Dean X to sacrifice one of her lines because Dean Y wants to hire a spouse in his college just isn't realistic in most cases.   That just isn't how most universities typically work (and yes, there are exceptions)-- barring an opening in Dean X's college.

[velvetelvis]

There are a lot of wild generalizations running around on this thread.  To those of you in academic couples, please do your homework and don't rely on anonymous posters whose credibility you must take on faith.  There are websites and books to go read. Yes, I know that includes my own post as well but here goes.

Speaking as someone who has been on both sides of the partner-hire conundrum and who has studied it for years, the facts are these:

--some schools have partner-hire policies.  Of these, some are "official" and can be found on their websites, some are not.  At research universities, even ones with so-called "fixed complement" policies, it is quite often the case that additional faculty lines can be found if the right people are motivated.  The same is true for some private schools, especially ones that are really dedicated to family and community.  You won't know until quite late in the process which is which.

--some department chairs and deans (and search committees) are very sympathetic to the 2-body problem and some are not.  You cannot know ahead of time.

--in some junior searches, announcing that you are in an academic couple at the interview will look presumptuous, as if you are negotiating before you have the offer.  In other cases, search committee members will be offended that you did not tell them before they made you the offer.  You can't know which situation you're in ahead of time.

All of this makes searching for two academic jobs together terribly difficult.  A lot depends on the couple's situation as well.  If one is currently employed at a school and is looking for either a 2-body offer or a counteroffer from his or her home institution, it may pay to be quiet.  If it is the case that an offer is useless unless it's a 2-body offer, then it's probably worth telling the truth on the interview, even if it means that you might not get the offer.

As for the whole "getting to yes" approach, that works fine IF the trailing spouse is ready to negotiate on his or her career aspirations.  If the goal is 2 tenure-track jobs or nothing (which is a reasonable place for couples to start if they are patient and both strong candidates in an OK market), then it's simply a matter of tone.

Last but not least, the ultimatum of "decide and we'll work on something for your wife later" means that it is very, very unlikely that a tenure-track job for her unless the couple goes back out on the market.  As someone else mentioned above, the only time to negotiate with your school is between the offer and acceptance.

VE.