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[flagman]

Hi,

How have others handled the job versus place issue with their spouse? I have a job offer at a prestigious university in Boston. I am not a professor, but this is a very compelling academic support position. The benefits are rather considerable - 50% pay raise, a salary structure (i.e. potential raises) that my current position at a state university in the Pacific NW will never even come close to, and other intangibles that make this a very, very, very good job.

My spouse has stayed home to raise our kids, so I've been the sole source of income. However, she has no interest in living back east. For my part, I'd love to stay out west too, but see this as a can't lose proposition, either for long-term stability or as a stepping-stone to something back out West down the road. She wants to wait for the perfect job in the exact place we want, but this means that I stay in my lower paying position that I believe is diminishing my skill-set and marketability. We've moved a fair amount during our marriage (5 years in one location in AZ, 2 years in another location also in AZ, and 1 in our current location in the NW), and she claims she's done moving.

Has anyone out there tried really long-distance (bi-coastal) commuting with kids? I dread the thought of not being close to my children, but opportunities such as this are rare. Should I force the issue (I've been told many times I'm a "dictator"), relent, or try to reach a compromise through the long-distance commute option.

Please, no flip answers, and no suggestions for marriage counseling. Thanks in advance for thoughtful or insightful replies.

[zharkov]

First, I think the climate and culture of New England and Pac NW are fairly similar.  Also, Boston in the "big time" in academia, so it is generally a good place to get your ticket punched.  And you have to expect some moving to play in this "game." So the move makes sense, though I don't have a vote.

Second, on a different level, you might want to focus on the interests of you and your spouse, not the positions of moving vs. not moving. See Getting to Yes.

[larryc]

This is a tough one, but if your spouse says no, the answer is no.  There are more important things than career, such as marriage and family.  And I can't image the bicoastal thing being good for anyone, especialy not your kids.

[keystonegal]

First ... remember to factor in cost of living.

My husband had a chance at a position in Boston, however, it would have put us in a position where I would have "had" to work to pay the bills. His commute would have been much worse than now and it would have taken us from our aging parents.

In truth, professionally, it would have been better for both of us (as I would have had more opportunities), however, we opted for quality of life. Our children are only young for such a short time, our parents are not going to live forever, and the extra 5 hours/week he would have spent communiting is better spent with each other.

[fiona]

Your last two paragraphs do make you sound dictatorial.

I vote for listening to your spouse.

[spork]

Given my marital history, I'm probably the last person who should be giving advice, but given the similarities between myself and the OP, here goes:

- first, I recommend the book Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, by John Gottman, PhD, psychologist who practices in the Pacific NW.  The book is extremely illuminating; I wish I had read it before I got married.  You'll like the fact that Gottman says that most marriage counseling is a waste of time because its therapy techniques are not based on any empirical research.  The book will probably help you and your wife understand why she is against moving (or why she feels you're a "dictator").

- I think a bicoastal commuter marriage is a bad, bad idea.  Your wife will be presented with a very difficult situation, and your children won't have a father around.

- you mention a significant salary increase, but have you done cost of living comparisons?  Even with the recent softening of the real estate market in New England, housing in the Boston area is very, very expensive and will remain so.  As a result, the "commuting footprint" for people who work in Boston is huge.  Traffic is really, really bad.

- how secure is the position?  If the administration changes, will you fall victim to the new broom that sweeps clean (more of a problem with private universities than public ones)?  How certain are the promotions/pay raises?

- depending on where in the Pacific NW you are located, the climate in Boston may be radically different, especially in the winter.  Boston has cold winters with high precipitation.  Ocean-moderated temperatures and road salt often cause the snow to melt into slush/ice.  Often summer temps are in the upper 80s/lower 90s, with humidity.

- Locations less cosmopolitan locations than Boston often get the thumbs down on this forum, but I'm guessing that between working, commuting, children, etc., enjoying all that Boston has to offer culturally and intellectually will be difficult.  You'll have to plan for those Saturday excursions.

- Have you discussed with your wife your view that your skills and marketability would probably get a big boost by going to Boston, thereby making it more likely you and your family can achieve whatever dreams you have?  Has your wife been in Boston before?  Is she a Pacific NW native?  Does she feel that your current job already provides a satisfactorily standard of living for the family?

I say the above as a person who grew up in northern New England, lived in Boston for 6 years, and has relatives in the area.  I found Boston to be a wonderful place to be a student -- I lived inside the city, had no car, had no responsbilities, and had a minute amount of disposable income.  Going back as a working adult I always think "I'm so glad I don't live here."

[flagman]

Thanks for the replies so far. We have definitely looked at the cost of living issues, and they are certainly part of the discussion. I've also had the luxury of never having a commute, so that would be a new experience as well. The standard work week at the new institution is 35 hours, so that would alleviate some of the time lost to commuting somewhat. My kids are 6 and 8, so I'm coming to appreciate how quickly they grow and how short childhood is. I'm also beginning to experience how much more expensive their tastes get as they grow up, too, which is part of this whole dilemma.

Spork - the position is secure and stable. My wife's mother lives about 4 hours away. Remainder of family on both sides is elsewhere, including my family in New England.

[fiona]

With all due respect, you come across here as a very cold person, interested in money and career calculations but not concerned with your wife's happiness. Interesting that you refer to the children as "My kids" (not "OUR kids").

I think the first item in spork's posting is an excellent suggestion.

[flagman]

With all due respect to you, Fiona, you come across as something of a troll, but in the interest of discourse, I'll try to defend myself somewhat.

I am very concerned about my wife's happiness. I am also concerned about providing for my family. So, my question is how much should happiness derived from geographic location (both my wife's and my own) trump the practical economic considerations that are embodied in a stable position with a wealthy institution. As someone who spent years working for environmental agencies such as the National Park Service, saying that I am coldly concerned with career growth and economics is laughable. If anything, my ignoring my career for years has put me in the position I am in today, feeling pressure to make up for lost time as OUR children start to get to the age where they need things, and college looms just around the corner.

Given the way you've parsed my previous posts, I'm sure I'll only sink further in your estimation with this reply. Nevertheless, I believe that my question is a fair one to ask - Geography or Job?

[zharkov]

Since you have kids, you'll be pleased to know that Mass does have good public schools, which vary by town, as in most states.  Here is a state by state rating:

http://measuringup.highereducation.org

About commuting in Boston, the commuter rail and the subway (called the T) are not bad. You may get be able to get a discounted pass at your school. Traffic is very bad at peak hours, as Spork says.  See mbta.com for transit info.

[noname]

Does your wife know Boston?? If not, could you take her there on a long weekend?
Boston is a wonderful, wonderful city to live in, with lots of wonderful suburbs. Small enough (relative to LA, NYC, but with all the amenities of a big city. Public transportation is very good and safe for an Amercan city - making a commute more attractive (and yes, given housing prices, you will face a commute; but that should not be an issue for your wife). And if your wife prefers nature to city, there is plenty to explore as well; the ocean, Cape Cod, hiking, skiing in New Hamshire...
Have you checked if your salary actually increases once you take cost of living into account? If it does, selling Boston should not be too difficult. And maybe you could argue that in this university town, your career options will be fantastic, making a future move much less likely (as you could just jump to one of the  many other unis)? Given your kids' ages, now is the time to move, not when they are 10 and 12.
I am not sure how well a coast-to-coast commute would work with kids. Also, what about cost of living (two apartments, frequent flights back and forth) in that case?

[mtnlover]

Boston is horribly expensive and as a former Bostonian the people are not as friendly as in the Pacific NW.  Don't get me wrong, I loved it and still love it.  In fact I'm watching the game right now (3-3 tie with those damned Yankees).  A long weekend visit sounds in order before any decisions are made.  Remember - if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

[expatinuk]

I think that the moving question is masking something else going on in your marriage and perhaps you and your wife need to talk about it.

If the GOOD things about the job are actually what you say then it would be better for your marriage in the long run. But I suspect that there are underlying factors at work and that you and your wife owe it to each other to have a frank open discussion... with or without professional guidance.

[nancypants]

For what it's worth (since in the end, this is a personal decision only you and your wife can make), I understand where your wife is coming from.  As a stay-at-home mom, her opportunities to make friends and embed herself in a new place are a lot harder to come by.  Moving frequently in the past few years has probably made that pretty obvious to her - if I were her, I would probably have just begun settling in and making friends after living in your current location for only a year and the thought of having to do that again would make me cringe, especially since it would entail getting used to a whole new climate again.  From her point (and not that I necessarily agree), it probably seems like she and the children are making far more sacrifices than you. 

It's probably not what you want to hear, but I probably would not go for the new job.  Even if it's a stepping-stone kind of job, that would just mean more relocation for your family.  If she agrees to go, you would probably have a fair deal of resentment from her to deal with, and I'm not sure any job is worth putting your marriage at risk.  And the bi-coastal thing is not a good idea - beyond making your wife a single-parent (not easy), it would be prohibitively expense and eat up any income boost you'd receive.

I would also add that what might be offending people about your post is the question you've asked: geography or job?  Upon reading it, it seems a bit more like: family's happiness (in the short term) vs. great job (over the long term)?

[aandsdean]

Geography is really important.

Two words to add to your consideration:  Tuition Remission.  If the new place offers tuition remission either there (if it's THAT prestigious, this may be a problem because your children may not be able to get in) or through a consortium (much better deal), that could be very important.  Think about 4 years x 2 children x $25,000 in today's dollars and suddenly that big raise looks even bigger.

Moving does really suck, however, and particularly, as nancypants says, for a spouse who is NOT working and doesn't have the social opportunities that come along with that.

The one thing I absolutely would NOT do is consider commuting in your situation.  I would give you a 90% chance of ending your marriage that way.