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Author Topic: grad student competitiveness  (Read 18016 times)
aristof_ns
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« on: July 25, 2006, 12:24:05 PM »

What do I do about a fellow grad student who copies my work by changing both her focus of study and her course material to match mine, and then gets praised by the Area Chair for her hard work? Worse, she claims the Chair has authorized her to teach all the sections of the only class in our area. The other faculty in our area are aware of the problem, but won't bring it up with the Chair.

I'm documenting all my course material, advertisements, etc. in case I have to prove that I had the ideas before she did. But what else can I do? And how can I maintain my sanity?

Thanks....

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Is not American literature the minor literature par excellence, insofar as America claims to federate the most diverse minorities, “a Nation swarming with nations”? —Gilles Deleuze
anonforthis
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« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2006, 12:39:23 PM »


sounds like she's got a great deal.

sounds like you're a fool for letting her to continue to do it. so long as you are,
you have nothing to complain about.
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francie_
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« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2006, 12:49:58 PM »

The short answer to your question is, I'm sad to say, not much.

Your best course of action is to keep VERY tight-lipped about your interests and ideas, especially around this student.  I hate to fuel your paranoia, but you don't "own" ideas unless you've published them, and this student may try to hone in on your thesis research down the road.  If you share a common adviser, I'd think about changing if necessary, even if it means refocusing your interest areas somewhat.

When I was a newbie grad student, I once had coffee with a fellow grad student who was a couple of years ahead of me in the program.  "Gee, Francie, what are you interested in?" was the main topic of conversation.  Lo and behold, didn't she line up a committee to work on a dissertation topic in just those areas. 

I'm puzzled about the teaching thing, though.  Were you promised to teach a section or two of this course?
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grasshopper
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2006, 01:23:00 PM »

Is your advisor not advocating on your behalf?

I'd suggest asking the chair about the possibility of taking some of sections of the course in your area. Don't be whiny about it. Simply ask about the possibility. S/he may not be aware that you're doing research in that area.

Although, if the chair isn't aware of the general focus of your research, that wouldn't say much about the chair... or about your advisor... or about you, really, now that I think about it. I don't want to point the finger, but how come your chair doesn't see you as being an up-and-comer in the field? Why is the chair behind this person, and not behind you? Why is s/he impressed with your colleague's work and not yours? Have you failed to make yourself and your work known in the dept? Or have you made yourself known, but not in a good way?

In terms of how to deal with this other student, I echo Dr. Francie's advice. Stop sharing your ideas with her. I had a similar experience in my undergrad, where the stakes were much lower - okay, the stakes were nonexistent. But it was just as annoying. This fellow student would take other people's ideas, and present them as her own all the time. She even once parrotted back to me my own explanatory analogy of a particular theory, as if the analogy were a piece of her own creative brilliance. I seriously think that she didn't even realize that she was stealing other people's ideas.

But it doesn't really matter whether this colleague of yours is engaged in some kind of attempt to reach the top on the strength of your research, or whether she's unconscious of what she's doing. Either way, she's making you look bad. So the two things you've got to do are 1) stop letting her make you look bad; and 2) start making yourself look good.
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aristof_ns
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« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2006, 12:31:42 PM »

I don't want to point the finger, but how come your chair doesn't see you as being an up-and-comer in the field? Why is the chair behind this person, and not behind you? Why is s/he impressed with your colleague's work and not yours?

Because my colleague announces everything she does (even though I do it first) and kisses butt by making herself seen at every event -- whereas I have a spouse and a long commute to school and can't realistically be "on-call" to the department at every moment of the day, whereas she is younger, single, lives within walking distance, and loves to socialize.

Oh, my colleague also did her BA and her MA in our department, so she may just be more familiar to the senior faculty than I am. (The younger faculty are plenty aware of her issues, btw--they just won't call her out on her behavior.)

Other than keeping tight-lipped (I am) and copyrighting all my teaching materials (I am), I guess I'm wondering how best to convey to the faculty that this is going on without seeming petty.

Thanks....
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dr_evil
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« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2006, 12:49:41 PM »

In addition to Realfrancie's suggestions, you may want to resort to locking up your materials away from this person, especially if you happen to share an office.  Sure, it may sound paranoid, but don't you already know this person really is out to "get you?"  I started locking up my labbooks after my data "mysteriously" was presented by someone else.
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goldenapple
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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2006, 03:54:19 PM »

I'd also recommend that you make more noise about your work and your goals.  Make an appointment with the Chair at some point to talk about your progress in grad school. Tell him or her that, while you feel that things are going well, you'd like to make sure you're taking advantage of all the opportunities that the Department of Brilliance at Fabulous U. has to offer you.  Ask what you can do to add to your cv.  Ask if there are any areas in which the Chair thinks you could improve.  State your goals (what kind of research you'd like to do, what classes you'd like to teach, what grants you'd like to apply for, etc.) and ask if you're on track. Could you get one of the top grants for grad students in your field?  Why or why not?  That kind of thing. 

You can't help your proximity to campus, but you can make yourself more visible!

 

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ludicrous
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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2006, 04:30:35 PM »

I respectfully disagree with goldenapple's suggestion to "make more noise about your work and your goals."  Graduate school is competitive.  Your classmates and colleagues--even the ones who appear friendly--are your competitors, even if it is only friendly competition.

I personally would recommend the opposite and would advise grad students from refraining from blabbing out all their goals, ambitions, plans, etc. and to simply keep it under their hat.  The less people know about you, the better--especially at this stage of life, when we, as grad students, are still considered "nobodies."  I also recommend keeping things under your hat, because what if you decide to change your plans?  What then?  Would you retract your prior announcement and issue a new one? 

I think the best route--at least it is for me--is to keep quiet, try to keep my nose clean, and hopefully be productive.  There's absolutely no need to trumpet what I am doing, what I plan to do, or trumpet what (little) accomplishments are under my belt.  I prefer to be more selective in releasing info to folks I trust--my dissertation advisors, for example, rather than to blab it to the entire department.  Frankly, I don't think my plans are really any of the other folks' business. 

As for ideas, that, for sure, I keep under wraps, because people steal ideas left and right.  And I"m not just talking about grad students either.  I have a bunch of future research ideas that I think are novel (but others may not), but until they get published or are near that stage, I'm sealing my lips. 





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akela
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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2006, 05:14:00 PM »

How about a disinformation campaign -- that is, lay a false trail, e.g. plant an idea that you know doesn't work?  Then watch her pounce on it, while keeping your real research topic well-hidden.  You might even feed her an idea that somebody else has already thoroughly researched, thus distracting her and wasting her time (not to mention any potential plagiarism issues.)  Be unobtrusive about it, and see if it works!
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prof_mom
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2006, 07:36:29 PM »

I think it is a good idea to talk to the chair and other faculty about your interests and goals. Not only can they be helpful, but it is always good for them to know you.

When I was on the job market, I applied to quite a few places. Those  on the search committee called faculty who only knew me socially, or because of my conference presentations. So it was good that I had made a point of getting to know them. They could at least put a face with the name and that was important in such a large program.

Also, many teaching assignments are given to students who ask. If you haven't asked, the people making the decisions may not know you want to teach them.

I agree that you should be wary of sharing ideas with others and especially with this person. You should also realize that unless you have written it or published it, it is not plagiarism for them to use your ideas.

Do talk to others (briefly) about your successes, but keep your mouth shut about research/writing ideas. There are a lot of people like that in this world.
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histgradstudent
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« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2006, 04:24:27 PM »

(Quote)
I personally would recommend the opposite and would advise grad students from refraining from blabbing out all their goals, ambitions, plans, etc. and to simply keep it under their hat.  The less people know about you, the better--especially at this stage of life, when we, as grad students, are still considered "nobodies."  I also recommend keeping things under your hat, because what if you decide to change your plans?  What then?  Would you retract your prior announcement and issue a new one?  [/i]

This is really terrible advice I think. In prof mom's case maybe all this paranoia is justified, if someone really is stealing your ideas and presenting them as her own then obviously you should be very careful about what you say around this person and take appropriate precautions. She's obviously shown herself to be untrustworthy. However, I don't think the lesson here is to trust no one and lead an isolated, secretive intellectual life. I've gotten some excellent advice from talking with fellow grad students about research ideas and dissertation plans. I also think that outside of the academic benefits, its good to be able to talk through this kind of stuff with people who are in the same boat.

I've never viewed grad school as competitive at all, but I suppose it depends on what kind of program you are in. In my program, all incoming students are guaranteed funding as long as they are moving along, so I don't honestly understand what it is we could be competing for. 

I'm more than a little confused about all of this worry about plans changing. No one is talking about sending out department wide memos or posting planned dissertation topics on list-servs. I talk about these kinds of things in the course of conversations. Everyone understands that sometimes interests change or promising ideas don't work out. If you mention an intriguing idea to someone over a beer, they are unlikely to take it as a binding declaration of intent.

I'm not advocating naivete. I wouldn't share unpublished ideas with just anyone. But, if you really distrust everyone to such an extent that you believe these things should be guarded like state secrets...well either you have a really awful department or you have some trust issues.
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ouroboros
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« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2006, 12:32:34 AM »

aristophanes68,

As a general comment, I'll point out that there are people like this in every graduate department.  In my experience, though, they're mostly concerned with keeping up appearances and don't actually contribute a whole lot.  Remember, a PhD program isn't a sprint, it's not about fooling people with a good first impression, it's about 3-7 years of hard work and finishing what you start.  People like the one you describe are focused on presenting everyone with the facade of a successful graduate student, but because this is their focus they actually are not good graduate students.  This will all come out in time.

As a personal example, back in the first year of my PhD program I felt like I was slipping behind all my classmates who were making a lot of noise about their great grant applications, manuscript drafts, research ideas, teaching achievements.  They continued to make noise while I just kept at my work.  In the end, most of them were still in the department--parading around and making noise--for a good two years after I finished my degree.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 12:33:35 AM by ouroboros » Logged
grasshopper
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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2006, 11:21:24 AM »

I'm with historygradstudent on this one. The other students in my program have been incredibly helpful - helping me fine-tune ideas, suggesting literature in subjects I'm not altogether familiar with, proofreading. And having the opportunity to discuss preliminary ideas is a really good way to expand those ideas out into a viable research project. Intellectual solitude is a nasty piece of business any way you cut it.

As for this...
I don't want to point the finger, but how come your chair doesn't see you as being an up-and-comer in the field? Why is the chair behind this person, and not behind you? Why is s/he impressed with your colleague's work and not yours?

Because my colleague announces everything she does (even though I do it first) and kisses butt by making herself seen at every event -- whereas I have a spouse and a long commute to school and can't realistically be "on-call" to the department at every moment of the day, whereas she is younger, single, lives within walking distance, and loves to socialize.


... the only suggestion I can offer you is "suck it up." There will always be someone else out there with an edge. That's not unfair. That's life. Part of the game is political, and if you're not willing to play it, then you're not going to be as competitive.

The 'star student' in my department is a close friend of mine. He has 2 kids and a wife, lives out in East Nowhere about 45 minutes from town, and supports his family alone. He's published more than any other student in the department, and last year, attended more conferences than some professors in the department. He also attends almost every single departmental function. But, you see, he made this his priority. Others (myself included) haven't. Is it his fault that I'm not as high-ranked as he is? Nope. That's my fault, and mine alone. I've prioritized other things. I could have done more. I didn't. I made that choice. So have you. You've apparently chosen to prioritize family. And that's fine! But don't hang that on your fellow students.

This colleague of yours doesn't owe you anything... well, except maybe intellectual honesty. But she certainly doesn't have to be less visible in the department, just because you have a family and don't live nearby. And she isn't going to step down, so that your star can shine. If you want to be competitive, you're going to have to step up.

If you have brilliant ideas - ideas that are worthy of getting stolen, and that bring praise and glory to the thief - then tout them. Make some noise. Make a point of attending some of these social events, and talk your ideas up. If that's not something you want to commit to, then drop by the chair's office when you are on campus, just to chat about your research. (You might also be able to work in a self-satisfying comment about some of your earlier research - which the chair has thought all along was your colleague's - and discuss how it's led you to your current project). Make yourself shine.
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prof_mom
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« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2006, 11:31:02 AM »

As I re-read these posts, I realize that there is a sense that for one to look good, others have to look less good. Let me tell you that this is not the case. I can tell you with certainty that nothing would make the faculty happier than to have all of the students in the department shine. If all of our students published, attended conferences, and well, even just showed up to teach their classes every day, we would be thrilled. Our careers and the legacy of the department depends on the success of the students. We want you all to do well.

It does not help you to try to make other students look bad, or to point out that they stole ideas. It makes everyone look great if you collaborate, get along, and solve your own problems. Believe me, we notice and appreciate your ability to get along, and your skills. Also, we do not lose sleep over your problems because we have our own.

We care about your success and want to help you, but again, the success of fellow grad students does not mean you cannot also succeed. The best thing is to work together on things. The best way to 'protect' your ideas is to get them published as soon as possible. If you have another student interested in the same idea, work together and publish something that is better than what either of you could do alone.
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ludicrous
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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2006, 03:55:55 PM »

(Quote)
I personally would recommend the opposite and would advise grad students from refraining from blabbing out all their goals, ambitions, plans, etc. and to simply keep it under their hat.  The less people know about you, the better--especially at this stage of life, when we, as grad students, are still considered "nobodies."  I also recommend keeping things under your hat, because what if you decide to change your plans?  What then?  Would you retract your prior announcement and issue a new one?  [/i]

This is really terrible advice I think. In prof mom's case maybe all this paranoia is justified, if someone really is stealing your ideas and presenting them as her own then obviously you should be very careful about what you say around this person and take appropriate precautions. She's obviously shown herself to be untrustworthy. However, I don't think the lesson here is to trust no one and lead an isolated, secretive intellectual life. I've gotten some excellent advice from talking with fellow grad students about research ideas and dissertation plans. I also think that outside of the academic benefits, its good to be able to talk through this kind of stuff with people who are in the same boat.

I've never viewed grad school as competitive at all, but I suppose it depends on what kind of program you are in. In my program, all incoming students are guaranteed funding as long as they are moving along, so I don't honestly understand what it is we could be competing for. 

I'm more than a little confused about all of this worry about plans changing. No one is talking about sending out department wide memos or posting planned dissertation topics on list-servs. I talk about these kinds of things in the course of conversations. Everyone understands that sometimes interests change or promising ideas don't work out. If you mention an intriguing idea to someone over a beer, they are unlikely to take it as a binding declaration of intent.

I'm not advocating naivete. I wouldn't share unpublished ideas with just anyone. But, if you really distrust everyone to such an extent that you believe these things should be guarded like state secrets...well either you have a really awful department or you have some trust issues.


Histgradstudent:

No, no, no.  I'm not saying this should be the case across all departments and universities, although I would recommend it--and this is JUST a recommendation--for departments that appear to have a more competitive streak among the grad students.  I've heard of many departments with extremely collegial grad students (and faculty).  Unfortunately, I would not characterize my department as one of those. 

Of course we all, as grad students, talk to our dissertation committee members, even non-committee faculty, and close grad student friends.  I suspect, though, that in most departments, there are those grad students who talk and talk and talk--precisely what aristophanes68 mentioned.  I'm not exactly sure why grad students do this.  Perhaps aristophanes is right:  They talk because it gives the impression they are successful, but it also scares the other grad students and creates a highly competitive environment.  There were/are students in my department like the ones aristophanes mentioned, and early in my grad school life, they scared me to death.  It seemed as if they were soooo accomplished, and I felt like a colossal loser compared to them.  But then I realize that most of it is just talk.  All I'm saying is that if a grad student can't walk the walk, then perhaps s/he should zip his/her lip up a little bit. Maaybe?  Just my thoughts.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 03:56:22 PM by ludicrous » Logged
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