daniel_von_flanagan
<redacted>
Distinguished Senior Member
Posts: 8,978
Works all day. Posts all night. Needs sleep.
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« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2007, 06:07:07 PM » |
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Logic yes, formal logic not so much.
The evidence is that people who take courses in psychology or medicine that require reasoning re real world settings and examples come out with better logic skills than those who take courses in formal (abstract) logic.
Citation please for this extraordinary statement? - DvF |
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The U.S. Education Department is establishing a new national research center to study colleges' ability to successfully educate the country's growing numbers of academically underprepared administrators.
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acrimone
The Red Queen's Court Assassin
Distinguished Senior Member
Posts: 4,049
I am not a professor at all, despite what I say.
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« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2007, 11:10:11 PM » |
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For the love of God... this was over two months ago!
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"All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
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daniel_von_flanagan
<redacted>
Distinguished Senior Member
Posts: 8,978
Works all day. Posts all night. Needs sleep.
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« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2007, 02:51:40 AM » |
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For the love of God... this was over two months ago!
Oops, you're right - a search led me to a post in the thread, I didn't look closely at the date and assumed it was something recent. Apologies to all. - DvF |
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The U.S. Education Department is establishing a new national research center to study colleges' ability to successfully educate the country's growing numbers of academically underprepared administrators.
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sappho
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« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2007, 01:47:30 PM » |
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Does anyone have suggestions for books or textbooks that would be appropriate for a logic class at the HS level or introductory college level? Most of the books that I can think of get abstract and technical very early on. I was thinking that maybe Raymond Smullyan would be appropriate? I am considering putting together such a course in the future and I would appreciate any specific ideas.
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"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
--Mahatma Gandhi
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nonny
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« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2007, 02:02:21 PM » |
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Yes, dear god, yes! Informal logic a required course for all high school and college students! Formal logic an elective in every high school!
Seriously, this would be enormously beneficial for students in every discipline. Basic reasoning skills are absolutely crucial to decent research and writing skills.
It would also be nice if logic was a precondition for the PhD. I'm constantly astounded by professional academics making very elementary logical errors.
I think Conjugate took logic courses with Borat.
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« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 02:04:40 PM by nonny »
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studentaffairsed
Junior member
Posts: 82
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« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2007, 02:08:36 PM » |
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For the love of God... this was over two months ago!
The beauty of the internet. Allows us to join the discussion later. |
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conjugate
Compulsive punster and insatiable reader, and
Member-Moderator
Distinguished Senior Member
Posts: 16,690
Tends to have warped sense of humor
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« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2007, 02:15:01 PM » |
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It would also be nice if logic was a precondition for the PhD. I'm constantly astounded by professional academics making very elementary logical errors.
I think Conjugate took logic courses with Borat.
I hope you understand that my attempt at humor was not a deliberate attempt at demonstrating sound reasoning, but the way you put the last two sentences together makes me wonder. I will concede that the sily syllogism of my last post in this thread did a countrified version of modus tollens and I referred to it as modus cornponens, a pun on modus ponens, which is completely different. That wasn't ignorance, however; it was an attempt at humor. For what it's worth, I've had a few logic courses in my time, and have enjoyed them all. On another topic, somebody asked for a book suitable for HS/college freshmen and I was going to suggest Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid, by Douglas Hofstadter. Of course, I don't know how much outside of the dialogs with Achilles et al. the students would really understand. |
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Unfortunately, I think conjugate gives good advice.
∀ε>0∃δ>0∋|x–a|<δ⇒|ƒ(x)-ƒ(a)|<ε |
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nonny
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« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2007, 02:31:09 PM » |
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Oh no, Conjugate, the academics logic jab wasn't directed at you!
That was just an unrelated remark about how the style of language in your very amusing logic demo reminded me of Borat.
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larryc
Hu hatin'
Distinguished Senior Member
Posts: 17,565
Eschew the hu.
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« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2007, 03:54:37 PM » |
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If people were more logical they would see that I am right and agree with my every position. Which would annoy the hell out of me.
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daniel_von_flanagan
<redacted>
Distinguished Senior Member
Posts: 8,978
Works all day. Posts all night. Needs sleep.
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« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2007, 04:04:09 PM » |
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Does anyone have suggestions for books or textbooks that would be appropriate for a logic class at the HS level or introductory college level? Most of the books that I can think of get abstract and technical very early on. I was thinking that maybe Raymond Smullyan would be appropriate? Smullyan's puzzle books are very good, but I'm not sure whether a student will emerge really knowing (say) the difference between the converse and the contrapositive. His other logic books are mathematics texts at the advanced undergraduate/graduate level. There is a nice book by Michael Gemignani published by Dover that would have been suitable for high school students 30 years ago, but might be too hard for them now. For informal logic, you can't beat the short story "Love is a fallacy" in The Life and Loves of Dobie Gillis - DvF |
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The U.S. Education Department is establishing a new national research center to study colleges' ability to successfully educate the country's growing numbers of academically underprepared administrators.
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nightowl
Not a
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Posts: 740
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« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2007, 04:13:14 PM » |
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If people were more logical they would see that I am right and agree with my every position. Which would annoy the hell out of me.
Is that logical? But I do agree with you. |
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It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows.
- Epictetus
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invinoveritas
Lucretian Praefectus
Senior member
Posts: 538
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« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2007, 12:37:34 AM » |
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As far as books that might be good for a HS course, I would consider:
Hurley's Concise Introduction to Logic
Damer's Attacking Faulty Reasoning
Whyte's Crimes Against Logic
Mcinerny's Being Logical
Weston's A Rulebook for Arguments
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acrimone
The Red Queen's Court Assassin
Distinguished Senior Member
Posts: 4,049
I am not a professor at all, despite what I say.
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« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2007, 03:10:35 AM » |
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Best introductory text I've come across is Irving Copi's Introduction to Logic. I don't think it's been reprinted in a while, and it's VERY basic, but it's great for just learning those basics.
Amazon page is here. I have the Sixth edition (1982) -- so I don't know if it's gotten better or worse in the intervening time.
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"All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
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invinoveritas
Lucretian Praefectus
Senior member
Posts: 538
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« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2007, 12:25:05 AM » |
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I agree....Copi's text would be especially good for HS students. Like Hurley, you get a thorough survey and can decide for yourself how far you'd like to go (from informal to symbolic logic).
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lbradleye
New member
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« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2007, 10:39:17 AM » |
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I do not believe that logic can simply be taught. The principles of logic, perhaps, but instilling the actual act of logical thinking? Doubtful. It surely would be nice if students could spend a semester in the classroom and then come out evaluating all of their actions before they actually acted. However, as a teenager myself, I feel very confident in saying that a logic course would simply not be enough to help the large majority of my peers
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