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[wiley]

Hello,



How do you all handle students' not following directions?

When I collect homework from my students, many of them turn in unstapled work, and pages assembled out of order. Also, although I've told them turning in answers only (with no work shown) will net them no credit, some still try to simply recopy the answers from the back of the book and submit them for credit. I feel like I should deduct points for unstapled work and so on, but it just seems so 'high school' to me. Why aren't they proud of their work? Aren't they afraid of pages getting lost? grrr.

Also, I regularly have to tell students to stop talking. I've discussed this in my syllabi, covered it on day one, and yet almost every lecture I find myself saying "ok, quiet down," and "stop talking." It doesn't help that at my school students don't sit at individual desks but at long elbow-to-elbow tables. The subject I teach lends itself well to group work, so they've all gotten to know each other, which makes it worse. I like it that they help each other, and many of the conversations are about the course material, but how can I get them to stop talking when I'm talking?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[avaya]

Don't take off for students who don't staple.  That is a little silly in my opinion.

However, you should give zero credit for students who turn in answers only.  Warn them sternly at the beginning of the semester, and then DO IT.  Students will only pay attention to the rules if you enforce them.  I have students write responses to the readings, and their responses must be 2 full pages.  If they are not, automatic deduction.  Only takes someone once seeing 95-30 (too short) = 65 for them to get the picture.

I have had problems with students having side conversations.  It's been my main problem in class.  I've worked out a solution that seems to work.  First, in my syllabus, I write that side conversations are not permitted and students will lose points in class participation for doing so. Then, in the very first class, I tell students that I'm generally relaxed and easy going, but I do have a few pet peeves.  The biggest is when students talk when I'm talking or when their peer is talking.  I explain why this is bad (because it distracts the person talking, it prevents everyone else from hearing what is being said, etc.).  I tell them that this is the one thing I get really irritated over, so DON'T DO IT.  Then I say, "If you have a side conversation with a friend that lasts more than a few seconds, I will stop the lecture and say, 'Do you have a question?'"  That will be your cue to stop the side conversation.

This actually works really well.  There's normally a few students who have to test this, and in the first week, I get someone holding a side conversation.  I stop the lecture and say, "Do you have a question?"  Everyone goes "ooh, you're in trouble" - because I've already explained that's my code phrase for "knock off the side conversation."  The students grin, I grin, and we all move on.  It's really effective and it keeps the mood upbeat.

If I get students who repeated have side conversations, I have them stay after class and I tell that that it's not acceptable, and it's really hurting their class participation grade, and ask them what solutions they might have.  Almost always they knock it off after that - and I've actually had a student decide to change seats b/c side conversations were too tempting.

I think this would work fine even if you don't give credit for class participation, btw.

[cc_alan]

Don't take off for students who don't staple.  That is a little silly in my opinion.

From a paper management pov, I disagree. Think about how much time it takes if you collect many assignments from a lot of students and they don't staple it.

I bring a stapler to class and tell students that if they aren't stapled, it doesn't count. While this may seem silly, they staple it and it's one less frustration. This lets me worry about grading the assignment rather than crying about the students who couldn't follow instructions.

I do something similar with a homework notebook. I want it put together in such a way to make it easier for me to grade. The first week it's turned in, if it isn't done properly, I deduct points and write a note warning them. After that I don't even bother grading it if it's done wrong. It's a 0.

I had someone a few quarters ago who kept getting 0's but didn't notice it somehow. I have no idea why she didn't know since I wrote it clearly in the book with comments. This went on for about 4 assignments when she finally wrote a note saying that I was being unfair. She said that she was doing the work but she wasn't looking at any comments or grades until recently and that multiple 0's were unfair since it was due to the same problem. I wrote-

"How is it my fault that you didn't read any of the comments I wrote? Also, the homework policy is clearly stated in the course overview you received on the first day of class."

End of problem.

Alan

[spork]

Did anyone see a post by me in this discussion?  I don't know if it was deleted for some unkown resean or got lost in wireless cyberspace.

[spork]

My mistake.  I was thinking of a similar thread about following email directions.  Here is what I said in the other thread:

"Sometimes you get a cohort of adult students who, let me phrase this politely, have developed a group entitlement complex.  Their inability or refusal to follow directions is not THEIR fault, it's the INSTRUCTOR's fault.  In my previous job, I had a really bad experience with a night adult class.  Students in the class didn't like being forced to read, so a few cooked up a story about me making statements that I never made, and they each called the program office to complain to the dean.  Luckily for me it was plain to administrators that the allegations were false (the students' phone calls were exactly the same, word for word).  But the students were never disciplined -- my former employer was completely tuition driven, and every dollar counted.  Which is why the night adult program was devoid of content and its degrees were worthless."

The same can be said of "traditional" undergraduate students.  College for them is simply a series of hoops they must jump through to get a magical piece of paper that will guarantee them a six-figure income after graduation.  They assume they won't see any of this drivel about following directions in the workplace.

[avaya]

Don't take off for students who don't staple.  That is a little silly in my opinion.

From a paper management pov, I disagree. Think about how much time it takes if you collect many assignments from a lot of students and they don't staple it.

I bring a stapler to class and tell students that if they aren't stapled, it doesn't count. While this may seem silly, they staple it and it's one less frustration. This lets me worry about grading the assignment rather than crying about the students who couldn't follow instructions.

If you bring the stapler to class, then I definitely have no problem with you expecting them to staple it.  It's if you didn't have a stapler in class.  Most of my students print from the labs, and the labs don't have staplers.  Bringing a stapler to class and expecting them to use it is actually a quite a good idea!

[elsie]

Don't take off for students who don't staple.  That is a little silly in my opinion.

From a paper management pov, I disagree. Think about how much time it takes if you collect many assignments from a lot of students and they don't staple it.

I bring a stapler to class and tell students that if they aren't stapled, it doesn't count. While this may seem silly, they staple it and it's one less frustration. This lets me worry about grading the assignment rather than crying about the students who couldn't follow instructions.

If you bring the stapler to class, then I definitely have no problem with you expecting them to staple it.  It's if you didn't have a stapler in class.  Most of my students print from the labs, and the labs don't have staplers.  Bringing a stapler to class and expecting them to use it is actually a quite a good idea!

Most of the students around here seem to borrow a stapler from any professor with an open office door. If I had a nickel for every time a student I don't know walked into my office and asked to borrow the stapler...I'd own stock in Swingline.

BTW, does anyone else have visions of Office Space whenever the subject of staplers comes up?

[wiley]

Don't take off for students who don't staple.  That is a little silly in my opinion.

From a paper management pov, I disagree. Think about how much time it takes if you collect many assignments from a lot of students and they don't staple it.

I bring a stapler to class and tell students that if they aren't stapled, it doesn't count. While this may seem silly, they staple it and it's one less frustration. This lets me worry about grading the assignment rather than crying about the students who couldn't follow instructions.

If you bring the stapler to class, then I definitely have no problem with you expecting them to staple it.  It's if you didn't have a stapler in class.  Most of my students print from the labs, and the labs don't have staplers.  Bringing a stapler to class and expecting them to use it is actually a quite a good idea!

Part of my point is that I don't think I should have to bring a stapler to class...Perhaps I should bring extra pencils and paper in case they want to take notes, then? My point is that it is their responsibility to submit their work in a neat and organized fashion as I outlined on the syllabus.

[cc_alan]

BTW, does anyone else have visions of Office Space whenever the subject of staplers comes up?

If you get a chance, hit the Swingline website and look at the price for the Red Swingline stapler.

While I agree with Wiley, it's worth the decreased frustration for me to bring a stapler.

Alan

[avaya]

Part of my point is that I don't think I should have to bring a stapler to class...Perhaps I should bring extra pencils and paper in case they want to take notes, then? My point is that it is their responsibility to submit their work in a neat and organized fashion as I outlined on the syllabus.

That's fine, but my point is, Choose your battles.  I don't know how it would fly at your college.  At mine, the students print from free labs that are all over campus (no charge for printing the way there is at a lot of places).  The labs don't have staplers.  This would end up being a big battle for me, and frankly, I have a lot of other battles to fight with them -- such as NOT plagiarizing, using good sources, not turning papers in late, doing thoughtful analysis, doing the readings.  I just can't imagine spending alot of time and effort policing whether or not they stapled their papers.  In fact, I try to get my students to stop worrying so much about small mechanical issues and instead worry about what's important -- how to think analytically, critique others' arguments, create your own original insights.  If students get ticked off at me, I want it to be because I require them to think for themselves - not because I docked points because they didn't have access to a stapler.

Obviously it's your classroom and you should run it as you see fit.  But the fact is, you want them to learn how to turn in "neat" work so they are prepared to do the same in the real world, right?  Well, in an office setting, everyone has staplers.  I worked in government for several years and I never once knew anyone to get in trouble for not stapling.  But I knew many people who had problems because they couldn't think analytically or write well.  If you want to focus on mechanical issues, take up how to do proper citation or even how to format reports properly or do a good handout (with bullets).  These issues all caused problems with people I worked with (not as much as substantive problems, but they still came up).  They need to be practiced and learned.  But to staple?  That comes pretty automatically when you've got staplers readily available.

[losemygrip]

The main thing is: make sure that EVERYTHING is clearly outlined in the syllabus or assignment sheet.  Have it in writing.  Then you can count off for whatever you want.  If they b*tch, just show 'em the WRITTEN INSTRUCTIONS that they ignored.  This goes for talking in class.  If it's a problem, mention in the syllabus that students who talk will be required to leave class with no opportunity to make it up. 

I had two guys in a large lecture class of about 80 who were always chatting and cutting up.  It was very distracting, except on the days when one would be absent.  But the last straw was when a student who came to my office for help said these guys were distracting her.  After several in class warnings directed to them, one day I interrupted my lecture, walked up to them, and said, "Get out.  Both of you.  I've warned you enough."  They were absolutely stunned, but they got up and left.  Students later mentioned on evaluations how that was their favorite moment in the class!!

They came by my office one night, ostensibly to apologize, but one of them was a psychopath who continued to give me trouble even after the class was over.  I saved all those emails just in case. 

The moral of the story is: EVERYTHING IN WRITING!

[figee]

Re: talking in class, this is a bit of a priblem in the big intro units I've taught.  Generally, I tend to ignore it is its quick - a colleague pointed out to me that for some students it was a way of processing the material.  But the conversations have to be quick.  If it goes on too long, I've been known to wander up behind students (the joys of lapel mikes), sit down and ask to join in.  I also call on them specifically, which does have the effect of keeping them quiet. 

[spork]

When I was in college, not that many decades ago, a stapler was standard equipment among students.  Today, for the cost of one iPod, a student could outfit his or her entire class with staplers, and still have enough left over to buy beer.  What annoys me is that students don't seem to recognize that I have reasons for the directions that I give.  I say papers must be typed because I can't read students' handwriting.  I say papers must be double-spaced so there's room on the page to write comments.  I say papers must be stapled because handling a pile of loose sheets is a pain in the butt.  Paper clips fall off, torn and folded corners don't work.

[avaya]

When I was in college, not that many decades ago, a stapler was standard equipment among students. 

That's just it - I think alot of my students do have staplers.  It's just their staplers are in their dorm rooms.  They print their papers out in the labs and come to class.  They are not running back to their dorm rooms to just to staple.  It's mostly a campus design issue.  If the college focused on having printers in every dorm room, my guess is that stapling of papers would go up enormously.  Personally, I wouldn't want to have to trek back to my dorm room just to staple a paper.

[voxprincipalis]

But to staple?  That comes pretty automatically when you've got staplers readily available.

Avaya, you also seem to have come up with an approach that works in your classroom. The cynic in me wonders if perhaps you are a bit too generous in assuming "common sense" among your students. My reason for saying so is this: In my syllabi for my music theory classes, I stipulate that all homework MUST be done in pencil. This is because when you are writing out music in pen and you make a mistake, it can't easily be scribbled out and rewritten -- it's impossible to read. Still, I get homework submitted in pen, with enormous scribbled-out places that make it look like the pen exploded on the paper. Clearly, these students have access to pencils, they just didn't use them. Why? If they were really using their common sense, they would have looked at the paper and said, "well, of course I can't turn it in that way, it looks like crap." But they didn't -- they *chose* to not take care of their work. If it's OK for them not to staple, or do their homework in pencil, why is it *not* OK for them to use sentence fragments or mix tenses? One could argue that those are different categories of error, but I'm not sure all students would understand that -- the setup is that it's OK to follow *some* of the teacher's directions, but not all of them.

I know it seems like they shouldn't need to be told certain things, but based on my experience of this past year, I am also going to need to tell future music theory classes that they are not allowed to turn in homework that is written on a torn-off scrap of manuscript paper or that is written on the back of (or sometimes on the same page as) another assignment. Who would turn in a torn-up scrap of paper as a homework assignment? Again, one would think that common sense would prevent them from doing this, but apparently not.

As for this not really being relevant in the real world, my experience again leads me to be more cynical. I'm currently performing in the pit of an opera production for which the orchestra parts are the most disgraceful I have yet seen in a professional setting. As with many older opera parts, they're written out by hand rather than on a computer, and they're almost impossible to read. But who gets reprimanded when wrong notes get played in the rehearsals? The players, not the copyist. Little courtesy details may seem unimportant, but sometimes they make a huge difference.

VP