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[avaya]

I'm at a SLAC (small, not selective).  But we have a wonderful honors program and our faculty in our department are great ... the profs are publishing, the classes are small, and the professors really care about the students.

I do however, get some students who say, "I'd like to transfer to Big Name University."  (Just so happens that alot of them want to transfer to the school where I got my PhD, a Big Name University.)  Some of these are my advisees, and I have access to their SAT scores.

Their scores are awful, like less than 1000.  I ask them, Do you plan on taking an SAT prep course?  They said, No, why should I?  Transfer students don't need to submit SAT scores, do they?

I was like, DUH.  Of course they do.  Otherwise every student with low SAT scores would go to a small school for a semester and then transfer to Harvard.

Anyway, I was just wondering if other people ran into this.  I actually did check and the schools that these students mentioned most often DO require SAT scores for transfer students.

I actually don't mind if students want to transfer for good reasons.  I've only been full-time (t-t) for two years, and I've helped 3 students transfer and I'm very happy for them.  I just am annoyed about the students who are stupid about it.  And also frankly I'm annoyed b/c they think they can "work" the system.  As though they can transfer to an Ivy League school without having to submit SATs.

OK, speaking of students planning to transfer, I have to admit ... if a student tells me they are going to transfer to another school, I don't want to invest any time in them.  Of course I will give them good feedback on their papers as I would for any other student, and help them in any way I can.  But I had one student who wanted me to help him find a specialized internship.  We were going to spend about 30 minutes online trying to find places that would offer what he was looking for.  He came in and before we started, he mentioned he was leaving for another school the next semester.  That was it.  I talked to him in general about internships but I told him, "You should definitely talk with your advisor at your new school about internships."  I was no longer willing to spend the 30 minutes helping him locate this specialized internship.  Is that terrible?

Confession time over ...

[untenured]

Not so terrible.  You have limited resources and all else equal a student that will continue in the program is worth more time than a student who will leave.

Sometimes transfer desires are a projection of another issue -- problem with a significant other or a certain class.  When the underlying problem disappears sometimes so does the interest in transferring.  For the SAT hopefuls, they can be told in no uncertain terms that their chance of getting in is NIL.  Besides, it's much harder there anyway, so why leave?

Untenured

[notaprof]

I didn't think you were terrible when I read your confession, I think you were properly conserving a limited resource, your time.  He should be able to cruise the internet himself and if it is something he is hoping to do for credit then you were doing him a favor suggesting that he contact his future school because they would be the ones to control that issue.  I think though I would do a bit to guide him into getting started and then be guilt free.   

As to the SAT, if the score is supposed to be used to predict ability to be successful in college, then I don't know why it would be needed for a student who has a record of success in three or four semesters of college level work.  I would think a transcript of work completed to date would be sufficient.  The SAT score would have been earned as a high school junior in many cases, some two or three years of education prior.  My school does not require SAT scores for admission, although most students do submit them so it would not be a factor in a decision on a transfer student.  Besides, at an SLAC with a limited endowment, transfers are a way of replacing the students able to pay the full fees who have transferred out, so the academic ability of a transfer student may be secondary  to financial ability (I hope it ain't so but I am pretty cynical and there is usually very little aid offered to incoming transfer students). 

Finally, I wonder if you have faced students who use the threat of transferring out as a way of getting their way, (a better grade, into a competitive program, etc.)  We face this often when students are told a firm "no" about something and I try not to laugh when they threaten to pack up their toy$$$ and play elsewhere.  We are supposed to quake in our boots at this and immediately concede to their wishes.  The ones with money will be a loss (that will be made up with a transfer?)  but what is interesting is that some students on full financial aid also think this threat will work.  They often come back in later in a more conciliatory manner and ask about any other options they can consider.   There are many students I would hate to see leave the college and I tell them so, but I am glad to say that the college has yet to concede to any of these attempted extortion cases as far as I know.

[arugula]

My experience is that sometimes students say this, even though it's not possible and they're not literally pursuing it, because they want to make a good impression. 

They think it makes them look ambitious and studious.  Remember, in high school if students went around saying, "I'm really shooting for Harvard," everyone praised them and their parents beamed. Just this week I talked to an advisee who is "thinking about transferring to Harvard," and I know despite her having had a pretty good first year of college, her ACT score was 20 and her high school GPA unremarkable.  She's not going to Harvard, but there's no point in my pointing this out.  She knows.

I also got, this week, an email request out of the blue from a former student asking for help on an essay to apply to an honors program at another school.  Despite the inappropriate tone ("Please edit this and get it back to me as soon as possible") I was going to help him--but he didn't even bother to respond to my email asking for more information.  If I had had a minute and was in a good mood, I might have looked at it for him, but the fact that he's no longer my student and probably no longer attending my school makes me not feel too guilty that I've let it slide.

[kasaidsen]

Being in a small, non-selective college where a 500 SAT (yes...500) and a pulse is the only requirements for acceptance, I usually encourage all of my students who want to transfer to a bigger, better school/program to do so. Once they begin the process, they finally understand why they are where they are...because no one else will accept them.

Sometimes the best teaching method for students is simple experience.

[spork]

I remember a student in one of my classes asking for a recommendation letter as part of his transfer application to another school.  This was when I was a doctoral student at big state university.  The student was performing in my class at the C-/D+ level in an intro class.  I wrote a letter, saying that the student was performing at such a level in my class, included other factual information, and gave a copy of the letter to the student.  A lesson in "if you can't get good recommendation letters, you shouldn't be asking for them."

[adhoc]

I was no longer willing to spend the 30 minutes helping him locate this specialized internship.  Is that terrible?

Well, "terrible" may be a bit strong, but it is certainly not right.  He is your student.  Whether he's planning to leave next semester or stay until he is graduated, he is still your student now.

[larryc]

Be blunt with these students.  "Given you SAT scores, you are not going to get into school X."

[avaya]

Well, I actually did sit down at the computer with him and show him 2 internships I had previously found for him.  They both were specialized (political economy internship with an IGO) and we went through the requirements, application process, etc.  But once we were done with that, instead of looking for more, I told him that those were the two that I knew about and that given he was going up to a great Big Name School, his professors up there would probably have more knowledge and even better connections to find him others that might look interesting.  And I actually meant it - the school he was going to had great political economy people who I'm sure were much more connected than I was in that field (since my field is not political economy though I teach a course on it at my SLAC).

So it's not like he said, "I'm transferring" and I said, "Get out."  I smiled and congratulated him. But mentally, I was like, "I'm not spending my lunch time helping him research specialized internships."

Do I think it was horrible?  No.  This was above & beyond what I consider the regular role of a professor; it's not as though I stopped giving him feedback on papers or stopped including him on email announcements of internships or conferences.  In addition, I did give feedback on an abstract for him for an undergraduate conference paper submission (after I knew he was leaving).

Nonetheless, I don't feel 100% great about it.  That might because I was really irritated because this student is phenomenal and I hated to lose him.  He does have the SAT scores to get into Big Name University.  And feeling that was natural, but also wrong because he is a wonderful student and deserves to go to the best school possible for him.

I do have to be careful with my time.  Our SLAC only requires 5 hours of office hours a week.  I do 9, and then often help students during my 30 minutes for lunch.  Sometimes I go all day without lunch b/c of helping students.  Next semester I am going to lengthen my lunch time to an hour and will not violate that time unless a student has a true emergency.  I've been getting really run down and that makes me prone to migraines.

[avaya]

I forgot to say, someone said that they don't think transfer students should have to submit SAT scores.  I don't want this thread to turn into the "Are SATs of any use" thread that is currently going on, but I did want to respond.

One professor in my department gives almost everyone an A, regardless of the work they do.  More than one of my students have told me that he hands back papers without a single comment on them, just a letter grade (and 90% of the class gets an A).  As a result, a lot of students take this professor and they have lots of As in poly sci.  Then they take me or another professor in the department and get SO SO angry with their B or C or D.  "But I got As on all my papers with Professor Easy!"

Moral of the story, I don't think you can trust grades.  I certainly won't after seeing this.

BTW, what really makes me happy is 90-95% of students who take me and Prof Easy end up telling me, "Wow, your class was hard, but I learned so much and you helped me write so much better.  Thank you."  So that dilutes my frustration with the whole situation.  (BTW, Prof Easy is tenured, I am t-t, so I keep my mouth shut, including to my students.)

[notaprof]

True you can't always trust grades just as you can't always trust SAT's either or at least don't need to write off a student who had a modest SAT score and has been doing well in several semesters at a selective college.  Students may find out about the occasional easy professors but if they have been able to find 15-20 easy profs and have a high GPA then they must have some kind of smarts and definite research skills!

I have also met many students who find the academic spark later than others and I hope there is a chance for them to meet new goals they set for themselves and not be discouraged from trying.  It would be kind to help them to have realistic expectations and let them know the odds they are facing.  Just don't dismiss them as stupid unless they have given you ample proof (which may be the case, of course.)

[cc_alan]

I do have to be careful with my time.  Our SLAC only requires 5 hours of office hours a week.  I do 9, and then often help students during my 30 minutes for lunch.  Sometimes I go all day without lunch b/c of helping students.  Next semester I am going to lengthen my lunch time to an hour and will not violate that time unless a student has a true emergency.  I've been getting really run down and that makes me prone to migraines.

When I get really busy, I don't see students during lunch time. Our offices are in a central location and the students have to go through the staff assistant. During those crazy times, I ask the assistant to tell the students to come back after lunch.

It's amazing what a simple 30 minutes can do.

Alan

[philoctetes]

Think what the administration would think of you providing help to students trying to transfer and deprive your university of their fees?

1/2 hour too much?

[avaya]

Think what the administration would think of you providing help to students trying to transfer and deprive your university of their fees?

1/2 hour too much?

That's really funny (and probably too true!)....

[zharkov]

In my career at "take basically anyone with a pulse" SLACs, I've had some great students transfer out to better "nationally known" schools, and was glad to write them recommendations.

What I found odd, however, are students who are not only squeaking by with Cs, but tell me that they "have to" get Cs because they plan to transfer to East West State College.  And they need at least a C to get credit for the course.  Of course, I doubt that EWSC will take them once they see their dismal grades at Pulse College. But even if East West lets them in, they will chew them up and spit them out in their first semester. That is, if a student struggles at Pulse, they are bound to fail at State.