next »

[Moderator 1]

The leaky education pipeline

Author: Forum Moderator

Many college freshmen arrive woefully unprepared to do college work, and as disadvantaged populations continue to grow, the share of the American work force that has made it through college is expected to plummet. Many experts blame that educational failure not just on high schools but also on colleges. School & College, a special report by The Chronicle, looks at efforts to fix the system. What reforms would better prepare students for college? What should schools and colleges be doing differently? How should state and federal officials help?

Date:   03-03-06 10:25

[Moderator 1]

Re: The leaky education pipeline

Author: get involved

Date:   03-06-06 10:48

Two quick things come to mind and involve the "trickle" down effect:

1. Academic disciplines need to encourage their students to become K-12 teachers. Yes, a secondary education degree partnered with an academic discipline is difficult to complete in 4 years BUT until we have a large % of academically qualified folks teaching math, science, english, history in h.s. (vs coaches who majored in communications teaching biology) students taking their classes will not have the content needed

2. become involved in running professional development seminars teaching the inservice teachers during the summer.

A third is to remember that college is not for everyone and perhaps we should concentrate on alternative career paths for students that are not academically ready for college

[Manfred]

I believe that one of the reasons for the dismal state of teaching is the partnering of education degrees with the attempt at specialization in a specific discipline.

My suggestions would include the following:

1. A coordinated and serious effort by government, industry, academia, unions, and parents to make the teaching profession as desirable as possible in terms of working conditions and salary;

2. The "valorization" of a Liberal arts education. For an interesting description of such a project, see Victor Davis Hansen's book "Who Killed Homer?" and David Denby's "My Adventure with the Great Books";

3. The transformation of an education degree into a graduate degree to be completed after having obtainded a degree in specific disciplines.

[Moderator 1]

The problem is deeply rooted in the k-12 public school systems of many states. In my own home state school officials are concerned about FCAT scores rather than learning outcomes.

The solution is to fix our k-12 public school systems by going back to basics which involves good old fashioned rules; If you cannot handle the material you will not pass the class. In addition, high school students should be required to take and pass courses that will prepare them to function in the real world and not in the fantasy world that the media has created for them. It is very depressing that most mass media has no interest in education, they could be a key ally in the war against ignorance, but theirs is the path of profits and shareholder equity.

I realize that the family unit also has a great deal of influence on a child's mind; Unfortunately, this is something that we as educators have no control over; However, we can control their formal education and should take upon ourselves to prepare them for a future that will contribute to the benefit of humanity as a whole.


Author: Julio A Lopez Phd
Date:   03-06-06 14:55

[Norman Hanscombe]

Before we can even begin to hope educational standards might be regained, society must face up to a range of unpalatable truths. In no particular order, this will include: ---

1.  Not everyone is able to come anywhere near the standards once taken for granted as being necessary for those seriously contemplating academic strands at Senior High School, College, or Tertiary levels.  There are large numbers, very large numbers, of students for whom placement in what we pretend to be intellectually rigorous courses is a cruel hoax.  It provides a momentary boosts to their "self-esteem", but the longer term effects help build frustration, resentment or worse.

2.  Society has long been concentrating so heavily upon youngsters' "rights", that the reciprocal nature of rights is forgotten.  The sense of community obligations is effectively quashed.  This isn't, of course, confined to youngsters.  Virtually the whole of society now has the same mantra.  Only one thing is wanted --- more; and naturally this "more" must be provided now, or possibly even sooner.

3.  When it comes to language skills, what average ability Primary Shcool students once managed [here in NSW, Australia] is now frequently beyond the grasp of many university graduates with a major in what passes for English.  Some 15 years back, a tutorial group at Sydney University had been commending themselves on the "high standards" now required in their Degree.  They were ready to be unleashed upon our oh so lucky High Schools.  One of their number who tried to suggest they shouldn't be too carried away with their self-bestowed award of excellence was howled down.  She borrowed an old English Text once used by me in the 50s-60s, and dropped it on the Tutorial table when next they raised the question of standards.  Never again was the topic of standards raised by her fellow students.  Possibly what stopped them discussing the issue further, was the fact that the Textbook detailed the years in which the material had been used for Examinations such as the High School Entrance Exams, set for students who had just completed 6th Class Primary.

4.  There would have to be a return to the provision of alternative programmes for students whose abilities and/or interests aren't academic.  In the past this included provision for students to move between levels, and it worked well as long as you had a school leadership which encouraged and facilitated such movement --- something I'll concede wasn't always the case.

There's more to what's needed than these scanty suggestions, of course, but we can do better, provided enough citizens care enough to make a stand.

[kedves]

I looked at this resurrected thread because I thought it was going to be about The Rock.

[sciencephd]

Undead Warts.

[jackofallchem]

A new way of using standardized tests.  Standardized tests shouldn't be used as a standard that everyone needs to meet.  They should be used to validate the school's grades.  If the grades are honest, then everything should work out OK in the wash.  When I try to explain this to K-12 teachers, they are completely baffled (as if I suddenly switched to Aramaic or something).

Old Way:  80% of students need to be at the 70th %ile level or the school gets a bad listing.

New Way: •90% of students receiving an 'A' in the subject should receive an 80% (not 80 %ile) on that subject test or the school gets a bad rating.
• 90% of students testing at 50% or lower on the subject test should receive an 'F' in that subject or the school gets a bad rating.

The benefits of this are manyfold.  First, a competency level is set by the test that is absolute (%) not relative (%ile).  Second, schools aren't punished if their students do poorly, only if they pass students who are doing poorly (or fail students who are doing well). Third, it eliminates a lot of the micromanagement and teaching to the test done under the current system (you don't actually want all of your students to do well on the test, just the good ones).

If a school has a lot of low performing students, they will be forced to fail them.  The parents can complain, but the teachers and principal's can say that they have to in order to keep school funding.  This brings them to a choice.  They can fix what is wrong (classroom discipline, poorly prepared teachers), or they can watch the students fail and fail and fail.  It is their choice.

[daurousseau]

They need to add an extra year to the front end of college. It would cover using a computer, writing, basic math. But do it in the college environment, so that the pre-frosh can develop a feel for the discipline they belong in.

There's nowhere else to put high school grads, anyway, in this job market, so the governments can pay for it as they do high school, with a win-win result.

Students who know what they are doing (have you met one?) can test out.

[csguy]

They need to add an extra year to the front end of college. It would cover using a computer, writing, basic math. But do it in the college environment, so that the pre-frosh can develop a feel for the discipline they belong in.

There's nowhere else to put high school grads, anyway, in this job market, so the governments can pay for it as they do high school, with a win-win result.

Students who know what they are doing (have you met one?) can test out.

Umm, yeah. The Young Person and a number of her friends. Young Person basically skipped the first year courses (AP and some college credit) and is doing fine. There actually are HS graduates that are competent.

Unfortunately kids like that don't come to my school either.

[kmellendorf]

Old Way:  80% of students need to be at the 70th %ile level or the school gets a bad listing.

New Way: •90% of students receiving an 'A' in the subject should receive an 80% (not 80 %ile) on that subject test or the school gets a bad rating.
• 90% of students testing at 50% or lower on the subject test should receive an 'F' in that subject or the school gets a bad rating.

The benefits of this are manyfold.  First, a competency level is set by the test that is absolute (%) not relative (%ile). 

On the pro side, this does allow for variation within a student body.  It verifies that the school is grading honestly.  On the con side, it offers no reason for the school to want the students to do well.  This is perhaps one of the weakest links in K-12 education.  How much of the responsibility for the students' learning is with the teachers and how much is with the students?  Perhaps we should even consider how much is with the parents and how much is with society.
Current rules seem to put most of the responsibility on the teachers.  All students can and will learn, provided the teacher teaches correctly.  It is true that a poorly taught class will result in less learning, but an excellently taught class will not necessarily produce excellent learning.  I often get the impression that "those in charge" do not wish to admit that the problem involves far more than one parameter.
Before a system serves its purpose well, the parts must acquire a reasonable balance.  This balance cannot be achieved by just trying to get the students to do well on a test.  It cannot be achieved by eliminating all but the best students from school (done in some countries).  Education requires all of the parts (administration, faculty, students, family, community, et al.) to contribute.  It does not have to be expensive, and it cannot be immediate.  To get good teamwork between all parties will require all to accept that there is an important benefit to a well-educated generation.  All must also accept that this cannot be purchased in the downtown mall.  When we all want our students to learn, rather than just obtain a grade, then we will be ready to develop something great.

[kmellendorf]

When we all want our students to learn, rather than just obtain a grade, then we will be ready to develop something great.

Now that the ideal has been stated, what can we do on the real side of the fence?

One barrier that the current standardized tests indicate is an authority that does not trust the faculty, and an authority that does not want to irritate the parents.  It could almost be described as a system trying to protect itself at the expense of the students.

If instructors are going to get the ball rolling, then we must have a place to begin.  We cannot begin with administration:  we've already tried that.  We cannot begin with the students, not until we regain their respect and trust.  All we can do with other faculty is enhance their awareness of the problems at hand.  This leaves only two major paths:  family, community.  Both can be reached, but neither can be reached easily.  Family and community seldom refer to our schools as a resource at which our children can work hard to learn and prepare for what comes later.  I have heard public schools referred to as many things quite opposite to this.  What can we do to change society's view of what schools are and what they can be?

[forest1227]

The society has change so much and so rapidly that we cannot expect the schools to catch up with it. Continuous education is the solution. It is not fair to blame the schools for all the failures. For example, which schools is responsible for the financial catastrophe we are facing now? Paying for college education does not mean you are guaranteed a life-time carrier either. There is an oversupply of talents as everyone wants to attend college. As a result, elimination is inevitable, either at the stage of university entrance (as in some countries) or in the job market.

[sciencephd]

Ah, but it is because society has change that we ask which shools is responsible and expect life-time carrier, thus makes elimination inevitable.