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Author Topic: Witnessing faith  (Read 90756 times)
invinoveritas
Lucretian Praefectus
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« Reply #270 on: April 29, 2007, 02:36:43 AM »

Wow....a snooty "angel".  I'm shocked!

Polarizing?  Yes.  But what makes you suggest this discussion has been been non-productive?  It has been quite the contrary....and I think you took my renewed invite a bit too seriously.  Lighten up!

Anyways, my solicitation was not meant to illicit more polarizing and unproductive debate (there has been some of that here, but you are flat out wrong in suggesting that that's all it was).  I'd just like to hear some judgments of the issue from others, since so many people have 'taken a peek'.  Was that not 'obvious'?
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looneytunes
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« Reply #271 on: May 06, 2007, 09:20:02 AM »

Greetngs Folks.

Here is my brief observation on modern day myth-making.  Remember, for instance, the myth regarding “Pocahontas and John Smith”? 

Anyone who can read will find no historical evidence that attests to their romantic encounter; furthermore, anyone who can analyze Smith’s own writing style, such as frequent superlatives and hyperboles, as I recall, will be able to decipher the content of his dubious character; in short, he was full of hot air.

Yet people WANT to believe their romance, for it is a pretty story (an exotic dark damsel-princess rescuing a Whiteman in distress), like so-called “Revelations.”  Sold by this harlequin romance, people then want to elaborate the pulp-cholesterol of mumbo jumbo, this concoction of mental masturbation, into bone of truth.  That’s just human nature, plain and simple.  This process of snow-balling, this constant elaboration of wishful thinking by the unblinking, can be found in any so-called revelations.  There are profits (and prophets) to be had by insisting and maintaining such pie in the sky (movies, books, cartoons, merchandises, and, yes, someone to teach theology); similarly, it is imperative for priests, ministers, temples, and churches to bake and sell this invisible pie.  Their very livelihood depends on it.  (It is not love but bloody greed that makes the world go around despite our delusion)

For a modern example of snow-balling, consider Joseph Smith’s "Revelation."  In particular, consider how his personal account (childhood “vision”) becomes more and more elaborate as it passes through greasy fingers of next generation of scripts even in a relatively modern world.  The plot thickens.  This particular snow-balling did not happen two thousands years ago by the way; any story or revelation that defies human mortality makes a great box-office hit even today.  Given that kind of human penchant for snow-balling, enthralled by pretty stories, concocted by wishful thinking and 24/7 elaboration and elaboration and more elaboration—anything could have been said and written down as “truth” at any moment in human history, a phenomenon that explains why there have been and will be so many poisonous prophets, delusional intellectually-deranged and challenged persons who enjoy text-messaging with God daily.  Whenever they personally talk to God, watch out, hell breaks loose.

Unable to attest its veracity but still WANTING to believe the make-believe, people then always brining in this artificial split between noumenal and phenomenal worlds, a very fine legalistic, hair-splitting nonsense, for nobody has proven the existence of the “other” (idea) world, a parallel universe of religious kind. 

Without ringing the neck of rhetoric, please don’t tell us but SHOW us your evidence.  Don’t just tell me this is so and demand me to believe it; rather, show me the hard concrete evidence and convince me.  Short of that, don't insist.  Where is your so-called humility?  This insistence upon noumenal mumbo jumbo reminds me how Western Philosophy and Civilization, indeed, is nothing but, as observed by Whitehead, a mere footnote to Plato, the mother of all dualists that insisted on the split—a near-religious, hair-splitting, hot talk his own disciple (Harrystartle) thought warm pungent horse-manure.
 
All this huffing and puffing on religiosity, by the way, will disappear overnight if the faithful will pray hard enough and bring forth their deities, once and for all, for the world to witness.  Why don’t they?  Why can’t they?  Please hurry up.  None has succeeded in doing so, yet they have succeeded in preaching so for thousands of years.  Let this deity appear once and for all!  The world will be a much quieter place once the faithful do that.  Elaboration is not evidence however long-winded it might be or however long it has been traveling through human alimentary canal.  Lipservice is lipserice every Sunday.

Would someone please post George Bernard Shaw’s parody on Lord’s Prayer here?

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looneytunes
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« Reply #272 on: June 03, 2007, 09:00:08 PM »

Ultimately, religion is all about CONTROL, the undying human desire to establish order and structure to this constantly changing chaotic world; hence, it wants to monopolize the world views for one monolithic outlook and no other way.  It wants to devour all other beliefs than itself, as well, which explains how human beans have fought, long and hard, as we still do, to preserve one version of it against all the others—while loud-mouthing to one another, “Love Thy Neighbor!”  In fact, all religions ironically pretend to teach compassion, charity, love, brotherhood,  humanitas, communitas, and humilitas, the kind of very fine rhetoric Hemmingway’s protagonist Jake, finally enlightened, laments about the lip service of “fighting the enemy for fatherland” in The Sun Also Rises: patriotism, honor, glory, and hero—empty skulls of words in harsh un-reality that finally awakens us in the tomb. 

All religions start as a sect, a Country Club made up of control freaks, long before years and years of snow-balling.  Mormonism or Moonism serves as one glaring example: the artificial creation of a sect followed by sanctification via appealing to antiquity (Egyptian hieroglyphics in the former and the time of Adam and Eve in the latter).  Remember Christianity too started as a “sect” just like any other sects in human history so much so that one can view it as Paul’s religion, the first organizer that ultimately canonized the snowball.  The argument—that the majority of Americans believe in God and therefore they are in the right—shows a gross unfamiliarity with religious history, just as the argument that tradition supports the veracity of its raison’d etre: when it was first institutionalized, it did not have any tradition to even speak of, just as when it first started, its followers were in the minority, the majority being cow-worshippers, among others. 

Mormonism has no history to fall back on.  Hence, the desire to be connected to Egyptian time for its lacking legitimacy; otherwise go figure how Egyptian hieroglyphics allegedly ended up in American soil.  Just as Microsoft Operating System subsumed most other operating systems for convenience, Paul’s religion sucked up all the different gods so that one did no longer have to worship agricultural god, love god, tree god, thunder god, war god, wisdom god, marriage god, city god, spring god, winter god, household god, life-after-death god—a tremendous money-saving measure.  It was an economic decision in that one did not have to kill so many lambs for sacrifice for this god and that god when one will do just fine, following the principle of Ocam’s razor.  Like MS Operating System, Christianity became universally “compatible” operating system for all people, in general, and those prosecuted or enslaved, in particular, showing how efficiency and economics go hand in hand. 

Another primary example of this control was that until rather recently (the time of Henry VIII), the Vatican prohibited the Latin Bible from being translated into English so that only the “learned clergies” can monopolize the sacred foreign text and the interpretations thereof, a clever and convenient controlling mechanism that denied ordinary people from getting to the source or God, individually.  The clergies could never be/do wrong, for they carried truth in their pocket, which meant that you are always in the wrong no matter what.  The Inquisition, in fact, resulted from different interpretations of the same line in the same book, forcing a brother to kill another in self-justified glory (Forgetful of showing another-cheek-to-your-enemy rhetoric). 

Similarly, such attempt to control and monopolize the proof of God’s existence still goes on even today.  Listen to tongue-twisting jargons one must muster to know or understand God nowadays—just as if you did not know Latin, you could not understand the real meaning of the Bible: “Thomism,” “epistemology,” “apophatic statement,” “epistemological justification,” “an assumed homo religious,” and “eschatological vision,” a very fine abracadabra only voodoo practioners, wearing a black hood, have understood a while back in human history to control the incomprehensible “other” reality for the ordinary folks.  Nothing better obfuscates high-flutin bull s*** than the mud-throwing, using a new “lexicon,” particularly since the control freaks cannot come up with hard and concrete, here and right now, evidence of God’s existence.  Well, SHOW him!  I am not stopping you or him.

Does one must really know these jargons to know God (assuming he exists)?  Is your God a Ph.D. advisor?

If so, God does not care about ordinary people without the Country Club membership then?  Rather, the reason that you try to obfuscate the simple issue whether he exits strikes me as just another example of CONTROLING.  Not all the wives in the Mormon household can be “saved,” for instance, without being called by name by her husband, too—a prime example of controlling and Chauvinism, just as Catholics would not allow a woman priest—to maintain and control the power and money.  Again it is the greed that greases the world to go around, and the only way to do it is via tight control based on “epistemological justification,” a phrase void of any significance, for it presumes the existence of a being as priori when in fact the very existence is the bone of contention.  What is the point of dong any research when you know the answers to all?

Always one-step lagging behind in the chase of God’s shadow, ordinary people are thus judiciously kept aloof (crowd control) from the SOURCE and then spoon-fed, morsel by morsel, by “religiously-enlightened intellectuals” about the incomprehensibility of God in the tongue-twisting, meaningless abracadabra only they pretend to comprehend, for they text-message with God daily in such ultra-fine jargons, the lexicon no ordinary soul can ever comprehend.  What the heck is “eschatological vision”?  When was the last time you used those heavy duty words over a dinner table?  “Well, Honey, are you experiencing any eschatological vision lately?”  “Well, I must apologize for my apophatic statement I made last night, my dear.”  Piled, higher and deeper, indeed.  If God were indeed here, would he use such pretentious b. s. to reach his flock?

When the uninitiated don’t seem to follow, these enlightened religionists then say there is a need to invent yet a different “lexicon,” another dead Latin or another voodoo spell, for the current idiom is just inadequate to explain such overwhelming incomprehensibility!  Consequently, only those who own a Ph.D. in Theology (what a joke!) can understand and explain God; the rest of the followers, half in voodoo and the other half in science.  (Elaboration begot elaboration and elaboration begets more elaboration, and then finally the elaboration itself becomes their evidence, a reason why their dubious argument is always circuitous like a snake biting its own tail)

Religion wants to CONTROL every facet of our and other lives, profiting from the fact that our existence dangles in the world of uncertainties—impermanence, indeed, is the only thing permanent in reality, as Greeks and Buddhists have noted.  In fact, religion even attempts to control events after death, providing the self-enlightened intellectual with a Mutual Omaha policy that will comfort him/her while breathing, particularly given the small donation-premium given each week.  Admit it.  99% of God is stupid weather or natural disaster, which explains why people flock to church typically in the event of a disaster.  Actually it is not even the church that triggers God in them; rather, it is the disaster itself that impacts on their psyche and they are now willing to grab a straw while drowning in his/her own sea of sorrow.  Sure, a nasty divorce will do that, too, so will a death in the family, a car wreck, or even tornadoes; we all WANT to believe that the deceased is in a better place.  That’s just human nature.  (Speaking of which, I have never met a Xtian who will not end up in heaven.  I often thought, wait a minute, if you are going to end up there, I surely would not want to see you again.  Once was enough!)  I have yet to meet a person who became religious after enjoying the sublime of a sunset or enthralling beauty of nature, such as Grand Canyon, a freak natural event that surpasses any religious or noumenal “high” or “enlightenment” or “epiphany”—all without so much high-flutin’ artificial man-made b.s.

Once cloaked inside the blanket of delusion, the blind wants to control others too, insisting others to follow the suit and become like themselves in believing the “incomprehensibility,” this pie in the sky.  How is this incomprehensibility any different than those of any other superstitions?  Why is your version of incomprehensibility more legitimate or righteous than any other claims made by others, such as Taoists, for instance?  “Tao,” they say, is an incomprehensible thing, too; as soon as you name a thing tao, it ain’t tao anymore.  Anyone interested in shooting a moving target?  It is so and it ain’t so?  “God exists but it is impossible to prove so; therefore, believe it.”

Thunder and lightening was “incomprehensible” to the dark souls of the night caught inside the caves, as well, forcing them to invent artificial intelligence, such as Zeus, Thor, Sky God, and Great Spirit.  It is a pretty story.  Nevertheless, a story is a story is a story.  Where are these supreme beings now?  Are they still incomprehensible?  Go right ahead.  Invent and insist on Intelligent Falling Theory, too.  I love all these tinsel trappings that will make us forget the red reality, “nature red in tooth and claw,” and I am sure the bubble will last as long as I decide to deceive myself.

“Isn’t it pretty to think so?”

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looneytunes
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« Reply #273 on: July 22, 2007, 08:55:14 AM »

Greetings Folks,

I come out here, once again, to mow the yard since the weeds on this thread have grown up knee-deep.


While reading through the thread on “Boycott Brouhaha,” regarding how the Brits want to boycott Israeli academics from the Isle due to their political/religious agenda, I notice that many posters fail to recognize that in pockets of *America* such overt sanctions are not uncommon at all.  Just look around in your neck of the woods.

In fact, despite our rhetoric on democracy, in general, and academic freedom, in particular, there are religious institutions in the homeland that overtly boycott people who are not “like-minded,” indeed.  One of the most recent examples of such boycotting based on religion/politics can be found in Ave Maria, Florida, where the township wants to band anything that is against Catholic teaching, such as selling contraceptives, effectively establishing theocracy in the heartland of American democracy. 

To boot they even have the “University of Ave Maria,” an institution that will also take advantage of *multiculturalism* rhetoric and worse student financial aids—the tax money you and I contribute for their monotheism:

http://avemaria.com/?gclid=CPbZ0fChu40CFRGCGgodthtXMA
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zafir
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« Reply #274 on: July 26, 2007, 12:18:30 AM »

I don't know about where you are, but this is a very conservative, "Christian" area. I have plenty of fundamentalist students and the Evangelical group is the biggest organization on campus. I started doing something which many see as controversial, but I do not allow any moralizing, emotion driven, value based arguments, and I have dropped students for attempting to proseletyze during class.
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looneytunes
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« Reply #275 on: November 16, 2007, 08:54:15 AM »

Greetings, Fellow Academics on this planet:


One of the most daring and thus glaring attempts to CONTROL even SCIENCE by calculating believers can be found in Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial on NOVA (PBS), aired this past Tuesday, November 13, 2007. 

This was a two-hour program and will be shown again during this Sunday morning (11/18/2007), please check, if interested, your local listings, and I believe this particular program is rather pertinent to the various topics discussed on this thread, suchs as what is a theory?  what is science? or why are there gaps in the Darwinian tree of life? among others.  While viewing, please note the die-hard attempts to control others by a handful of zealots, the fundamentalist-thumpers.

The first url below is the general discussion regarding the program itself (Dover Trial); the second, the heated exchange between believers and disbelivers, an aftermath after the second “Monkey Trial”:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/

http://discussions.pbs.org/viewforum.pbs?f=231


As the program exposes, and as even the Bush-appointed, Republican judge concurs, Creationism has morphed into "Intelligent Design," a cosmetic touch on moniker by DI; hence, ID is DI just as DI is ID, confusingly enough, echoing my earlier assertion that I cannot prove the existance of God; therefore, beieve you me rhetoric.

Please feel free to comment on the program after viewing the show, relating to the donne of this thread.


LT
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looneytunes
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« Reply #276 on: November 16, 2007, 11:14:24 AM »

My Apologies for the typos in the earlier post.


Greetings, Fellow Academics on this planet:

One of the most daring and thus glaring attempts to CONTROL even SCIENCE by calculating believers can be found in Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial on NOVA (PBS), aired this past Tuesday, November 13, 2007. 

This was a two-hour program and will be shown again during this Sunday morning (11/18/2007), please check, if interested, your local listings, and I believe this particular program is rather pertinent to the various topics discussed on this thread, such as what is a theory?  what is science? or why are there gaps in the Darwinian tree of life? among others.  While viewing, please note the die-hard attempts to control others by a handful of zealots, the fundamentalist-thumpers.

The first url below is the general discussion regarding the program itself (Dover Trial); the second, the heated exchange between believers and disbelievers, an aftermath after the second “Monkey Trial”:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/

http://discussions.pbs.org/viewforum.pbs?f=231


As the program exposes, and as even the Bush-appointed, Republican judge concurs, Creationism has morphed into "Intelligent Design," a cosmetic touch on moniker by DI; hence, ID is DI just as DI is ID, confusingly enough, echoing my earlier assertion that I cannot prove the existence of God; therefore, believe you me rhetoric.

Please feel free to comment on the program after viewing the show, relating to the donne of this thread.
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sad_goat
Nothin' but love for ya
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Requiring tolerance from the tolerant every day.


« Reply #277 on: November 17, 2007, 12:09:04 PM »

Quote
While viewing, please note the die-hard attempts to control others by a handful of zealots, the fundamentalist-thumpers.

I didn't know this thread was about man-made global warming...
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In other words, it is a moral and philosophical question, not a question of details.

...it is proper to take alarm at the first experiment upon our liberties. - James Madison
looneytunes
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« Reply #278 on: November 17, 2007, 12:42:18 PM »

Thanks for visiting, Sadgoat.

Check the second url above to see how man-made global warming has turned the planet Earth into Mars.

:)

LT
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eclectic67
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« Reply #279 on: March 24, 2008, 11:59:28 AM »

Every person on Earth has faith in something.  Last word.
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larryc
Hu hatin'
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Eschew the hu.


WWW
« Reply #280 on: March 24, 2008, 12:01:22 PM »

Not necessarily.
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eclectic67
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« Reply #281 on: March 24, 2008, 12:36:33 PM »

LOL. Hi Larryc, long time no read.

This reminds me of growing up with my stubborn brother.  Because of his insecurity, he could never allow his younger brother to have the last word.  Is too! 

I enjoyed this debate, God's speed.
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husqvarna
I am the chainsaw.
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« Reply #282 on: March 24, 2008, 12:59:03 PM »

Reading threads that have been dredged up from some time ago can give me a dizzying sense of not knowing what month it is.
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I am not surprised that you are confused ... [t]hat confusion may well be chronic if not congenital.
invinoveritas
Lucretian Praefectus
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« Reply #283 on: March 28, 2008, 09:24:39 PM »

Yes...but you all know I was right about everything.

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husqvarna
I am the chainsaw.
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« Reply #284 on: March 29, 2008, 12:02:48 PM »

dude... post on the other thread.  You always leave when things get interesting!
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I am not surprised that you are confused ... [t]hat confusion may well be chronic if not congenital.
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