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[fred jones]

Just to set the record straight, The Dubai branch of  AIU is semiautonomous.

[Mike Lambert]

DETC's recognized scope of recognition (by ED and CHEA) is from the associates through the First Professional Degree (e.g., JD) degree levels.

Grantham University is accredited by DETC and meets the high standards of DETC. DETC standards are quite  
stringent and specific for online or distance education institutions.

Grantham has been offering distance instruction for over a half century and DETC is celebrating its 80th year of service to education this year.

[%sig%]

[Alan]

It is interesting to see the Chronicle regularly report on the negatives of proprietary but never take a dive into the public side of the equation and examine similar issues such as:   whether final proof of high school graduation is really validated by the public institution (a state audit of public higher ed ia southern state a few years back suggested it was not); how many credits do the taxpayers actually subsidize before a student graduates from a public institution is it what is published in the catalog or many more (a state legislature in a southern state recently put a cap on the number of credits at the undergraduate and graduate level they would subsidize because students were well above the published graduation requirement);  how many students at public institutions fight every term because courses are not offered needed to graduate; what is the employment rate of students graduating from public institutions in contrast to proprietary institutions; what happens to a "tenured" faculty member in the public institution that is regularly reviewed negatively by student; or perhaps look at the credentials and experience of the faculty teaching freshman level students in public and proprietary institutions.; how often does the public institution re-evaluate the relevancy of curriculum and quickly are changes implemented;  why is it that regionally accredited institutions fought so hard during the last session of Congress not toaccept  transfer of credits from nationally accredited even if it was determined that the course had the same learning outcomes, used the same text and had faculty with equal or even more advanced credentials teaching the course (i.e. perhaps the regionally accredited institution was more concerned about the Title IV funds or state subsidy they would lose on the credits that were transferred) were there are no success stories of students graduating from AIU LA...hmmmm

[A.D.]

Alan wrote:

> It is interesting to see the Chronicle regularly report on the negatives of proprietary but never take a dive into the public side of the equation

First, let's be clear. There is plenty of malarky going on, in all of HE. Gub-mint, non-profits, for-profits.

What stuck in my craw was how the UOP-frightened gub-mint people keep kicking the Rushmore Universities of the world -- when their own houses could use cleaning, frankly.

To wit: a recent column by a PhD student about marketing by for-profits.

A student at a school which, BTW, has a graduation rate (six-year boundary) of only 65%.

Is the pot calling the kettle black? You decide.

[%sig%]

[TBD]

1.  On regional accreditation, North Central is notorious for being much easier that others-- that's why UofP relocated to Phoenix in its early days.

2.  As others have said, there's enormous pandering to get often inappropriate students into conventional colleges and universities.  A local college has wireless and a mandatory laptop policy-- the real subtext is "...goof away your time in class if you come here."  Just two days ago a frustrated prof there closed an inattentive student's laptop on her hand and was charged with assault by her.  Maybe he should get a medal.  In some ways, the culture of student evaluations is basically pandering.

[Another ex-CEC employee]

Alan and AD...you are not correct.  In a non-proprietary school does the collections department (ususally a very tall and rather intimidating person) go to the students classroom and "pull them out" to bring them to the business office?  I don't think so. I could go on all day about the questionable and clearly illegal practices I have seen. What I don't understand is why the state and federal governing bodies have allowed these so-called schools to stay open as long as they have.  I worked in a CEC school for 3 years. I saw perhaps 10 to 20 students during that time whom I saw as academically competent enough to finish a degree at a 4-year public instituition. The "star" student at a proprietary is often an average student at another college. The so-called star students from these proprietary are few and far between, and they are often used and exploited for marketing purposes by the corporation.

Try working in a proprietary for a few years..especially a CEC owned school. Then come back and tell me how much worse it is in the puclic sector.

[A.D.]

Another ex-CEC employee wrote:

> Alan and AD...you are not correct.

No, it is you who is not correct, sir.

Repeatedly, I stated there are plenty of for-profits that needed investigating.

I also said those outside the for-profit arenas needed investigating. When major land-grant schools have graduation rates (six-year spans) in the 50% range -- what is the public getting for its money, sir?

You obviously have a "chip on your shoulder" about CEC.

Why don't you go to the U.S. attorney's office and do something about CEC? Rather than continuing to repeat your sad tale here? I mean, really ..

[%sig%]

[Randy Stephens]

I watched Mr. Burd fielding questions regarding
higher education, student loans, and "for profit"
colleges  and universities among other issues
facing higher education.  He did a great job there
and his remarks and research in the titled "Shell
Game" links are well prepared as well.

If anything, the intensity of his comments on
"for profit" colleges is much greater in print than
it appeared to be as he was interviewed
(interrogated) on TV.   In all fairness, though,
I think that he was "plumb tuckered out" by the
time the discussion and questions approached
the salient facts of relevent subjects.  The scope
of matters considered was incredibly broad.

Redirecting a bit, are proprietary schools and
"for profit" colleges chartered or organized
by the same guidelines?   If not, should they
be governed in a manner that addresses their
less than desirable practices and their strengths?

PS- Stephen Burd may have to "dumb down"
a bit if he wants to make it on "60 Minutes" but
I think he's got a shot at a job there if audiences
mature.

[%sig%]

[Bart]

Randy Stephens wrote:

> Redirecting a bit, are proprietary schools and
> "for profit" colleges chartered or organized
> by the same guidelines?   If not, should they
> be governed in a manner that addresses their
> less than desirable practices and their strengths?

UOP is accredited -- credit Dr. John Sperling with that. I don't think CEC is. That's a big difference, obviously.

[Another ex-CEC employee]

AD, et. al.,...My tale is not sad. I found my way out of the for-profit arena before I couldn't get job at a reputable institution. If I were still employed by a for-profit I would never comment here in the public forum because in all liklihood I would be fired and possibly sued.

I gave up a rather nice salary because I just couldn't work for people like that anymore and I had done all I could for the students from within.  When the corporation recognizes that one will not "play the game", one is quickly isolated with absolutely no recourse.  The "chip" I carry is one for the many many students I saw burdened with tens of thousands worth of debt for a degree that it worth virtually nothing.

As for land-grant institutions among others....are not all institutions corrupt at some level? Some are just worse than others, much worse.

[%sig%]

[yet another ex CEC employee]

Following Locke's lead in his discussion of simple ideas:

working at  a CEC institution is like the taste of (bad) pineapple--it must be experienced (endured) to be understood.


Much of my discomfort  with CEC concerned decisions made by corporate administrators about  curriculum matters with little effort to consult with competent faculty teaching in the relevant disciplines.   A good example of this  can be seen in the painful evolution  of the IT programs at AIU.  

An easy fix for the so called low graduation rates at many institutions mentioned by AD:

"When major land-grant schools have graduation rates (six-year spans) in the 50% range -- what is the public getting for its money, sir?"

Change policies: develop  highly selective admission standards so that  students will not be admitted unless there is a high probability, say .90,  that they will graduate within 4 years.   Better yet, because it will involve less work, just adopt MIT, Harvard or Cal. Tech. admission policies.

[Dr. Grace Telesco AIU SouthFla]

I write this in response to the recent editorial entitled Promises and Profits about the LA campus of American InterContinental University and the indictment that the university is only concerned about enrollments rather than students.  I  have spent over twenty years in Academe as well as being a twenty year veteran of the New York City Police Department where I served the people of the city of New York during September 11th as a Special Assignment Lieutenant providing crisis intervention and counseling to thousands of grieving families of the victims of the World Trade Center attack. During my tenure with the NYPD I was privileged to have been appointed to the position of Chairperson of the Behavioral Science Department at the New York City Police Academy and taught at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, St. John's University, East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania, and Fordham University. I currently teach full time as an Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice at the Weston campus of American InterContinental University in South Florida.  I therefore believe that I make the following assertions without prejudice about American InterContinental University South Florida, having had substantial enough experience in the "non -profit" academic world and governmental institutions with which to make a comparison.  

 

The students at American InterContinental University South Florida campus are among the most eager, earnest, and hard-working group of students that I have encountered in twenty years- making my job and my passion to teach an absolute  joy.
The faculty, staff, and administrators at American InterContinental University South Florida campus are extraordinarily caring about their students and are among the most collegial, non-competitive, and collaborative group of academic professionals that I have encountered in twenty years- making coming to work exciting, meaningful and non-threatening.
I am proud to be on the faculty at American InterContinental University South Florida and pose the following questions to Stephen Burd regarding his indictments of AIU:

1) Are proprietary schools the only ones who concern themselves with profits, enrollment numbers and "starts" or do the presidents of the ivy league schools also worry about losing their university provided convertible and $500k+ base  salaries?

2) Are proprietary schools like AIU the only ones who rely on federal student loans or millions of dollars in federal grant money to replicate studies exploring research questions that only exist on paper and have no practical application?

3) Isn't it true that there are faculty at "not for profit" universities that are so concerned about publishing and bringing in grant money that their self-serving - motivations theoretically and practically conflict with student's needs and hardly ever concern themselves with whether or not students actually learn anything?

4) Isn't it also true that the students who are given an opportunity to advance themselves academically and professionally at American InterContinental University would otherwise be excluded and shut out from their "non-profit" elitist counterparts?  Mr. Burd GET REAL.
 
P.S. The author might benefit from a re-read of Earl Babbie's classic text on Research Methods before his next undertaking of the research question "who 'profits' from higher education.
 

Grace A. Telesco, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice
American InterContinental University
2250 North Commerce Parkway
Weston, Florida 33326
954-446-6384

[yet another ex cec emplyee]

Grace A. Telesco, Ph.D.:

Isn't it also true that the students who are given an opportunity to advance themselves academically and professionally at American InterContinental University would otherwise be excluded and shut out from their "non-profit" elitist counterparts? Mr. Burd GET REAL.

Are you suggesting that

non-profit = elitist.

?

That is news to me

[Telesco]

Burd's AIU and for profits slam in my opinion comes from an elitist position

[Telesco]

According to


Author: Telesco
Date:   01-19-06 20:42
"
Burd's AIU and for profits slam in my opinion comes from an elitist position

"

Slam?

elitist position

Note well--the second is either ad hominem or simple name  calling.  An argument might be more convincing.  

That there are problems with AIU should be clear from the numerous violations listed in the SACs  document reporting that the school has been placed on probation.  

http://www.sacscoc.org/disclosure/dec2005/American%20InterContinental%20U.pdf