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[Joe Doe, What do I know U.]

This article as I was reading it started out and continued..I stopped reading after a while...like it was Dana Carvey's "Grumpy Old Man" Character...

"Back in my day, we put skewers in our eyes....and we LIKED IT".....

Also problems with the younger generation and why they can't do things well has been an argument going back to the origins of time...

We should improve and continue to improve, but we do the things we do because we have learned that many times it is the right thing to do, and we learned that over many generations.  We now have more choice than we ever had, and will continue to do so, we will have those who do great things and those that do less than great things.  To make generalizations and stereotypes does not help matters.  What works for some will not work for others.

A bit of compassion, flexibility and knowledge is probably needed by all of us and there are not best ways of doing anything.  

So let us live, drink and be merry for we will always have lots of work to do ahead of us.  To say we must deprive ourselves to make us better is not a very thoughtful approach.

[Linda Strating]

This is a fine piece of writing and I thank the author for relaying what many of us have experienced first-hand as instructors, faculty members, administrators, employers, and parents.

In my view, many of our students (and their teachers) have lost the flavor and dimension of understanding the importance of structures - of words, sentences, thoughts, ideas, books, paragraphs, projects, institutions, cultures, the universe - and bring less complexity into every component of their shared existence.  The phenomenon of cyberspace has compounded this by its myopic (yet ironically multi-dimensional) view of the world through a flat screen.  The unfortunate result is that we don't learn how to think independently or connect dots....and that can be dangerous, as we already know.

I would love to see a return to a less-choice-more-requirements approach to the most basic of learning tools: the diagramming of a sentence, the creation of a map, the design of a community - such that larger views are based on an innate understanding of the most primitive building blocks that collectively and cumulatively stretch the mind like a muscle.

We've also lost sight of the importance of creativity and self expression.  Despite studies that prove and illustrate the connectiveness of music and cognitive development, we slash our fine arts programs in lieu of left-brain (or no brain) activity, and live in a sound byte society that relies on fragmented information supplied by a hurry-up-and-be-first media.

Our learning in this life is as indivdual as our fingerprints.  As humans we should recognize and manifest that understanding by remembering, too, that the fingerprint has to be attached with flesh which encircles a hand which is attached to a wrist, which is attached......etc......and that the individuality that is 'us' cannot exist without a support that bolsters as it proclaims.

In the long run, we get what we deserve, we reap what we sow, and we tolerate people and things to the extent we agree to tolerate them.  We are constantly teaching others how to treat us and our children.  Maybe it's time to start imposing a new set of expectations.

[Reality Check]

I agree: That was the point I was asking about above. Since when have the behaviors under discussion not been part of the student experience? Claiming that students are utterly unlike any of their predecessors in prior ages smacks of rationalization to me. The statement is neither true nor helpful.

[It starts young....]

It starts when kids are young--the state tests that have been adopted create a system in which teachers are basically telling kids they only need to know X to pass so nothing else is taught and critical thinking skills aren't necessary.  By the time they get to high school, kids are so wrapped up in everything BUT school that teachers cut them a lot of slack and don't work them hard.  Then, when they get to college, some professors work them hard, some don't so there's no sense of continuity among classes.  If you're a professor with high standards at a mediocre university (like me) with an administration that admits almost anyone who applies, you're in a very tough situation.  I am vilified by students sometimes because I expect them to proofread their work before they hand it in and I will fail someone for turning in work that does not fulfill an assignment.  The students are taught in high school many times that turning in something, even if it's not quite right, will get them some credit.  They come to college with this attitude and they carry it back out the door into the working world.  I teach resume writing and job searching every semester and I tell my students over and over again how important it is to work hard to produce good documents.  They look at me, do not take notes and then turn in sloppy work.  Last semester, I had a student whose mother called my chair to complain that her daughter failed my class.  Her daughter had only done half the work for the course but for some reason, she was still expected to pass.  There's an attitude out there that we fight against all the time and if we let them slide by in our courses, they will graduate and not have the skills to succeed.  I just wish public schools would stop hiring mediocre graduates of teaching programs and would revamp testing so that the kids get an education rather than cursory knowledge and then maybe we'd have a chance to combat this

[Randy Stephens]

Sirs/Madams:

Perhaps the problem, of assessing readiness
of the college graduate for the "real world" is
not so much in the skills acquired during a
student's education as it is for the student to
have a correct understanding of conditions in
the work-a-day and play-a-day world.

I am certain that the most prevalent need
for enlightening those entering the "real" world
and its workforce is that they understand that
their honesty and morality is hinderence to
both being accepted by others and to being
trusted by others.  It is very true that concerns
it this area are diametric to those one would
encounter 20-30 years ago.  Then virtue was
respected.

Now, the virtuous person is perceived
as a threat to those conducting themselves
permissively in their level of honesty and extremely
liberally in their social interaction and habits.  
The "straight" individual may, by action or word,
be thought by co-workers and acquaintences to be
a threat to their improprieties.  Thus,
he or she may experience [and not even be
aware of it]  losing their "staying power"
in employment, relationship, and leisure settings
[i.e. the well-known Southern U.S concept of
being "Run Off"].

Actually, the general populace is so illegal, immoral,
unethical, and improper in so many of their general
activities that "de facto" standards for acceptance
into common insitutions of society (i.e. work, play,
domicile) are not those that a student would expect
from their experiences in the neighborhoods in which
they were raised, the churchs they attended, and,
most hopefully, the colleges and universities where
they completed their studies.  As a final preparation
for a graduating student they should consider that
those conditions would could, and would,  probably exist.

[Laurie, Grad Student, PSU]

I thought there were some really good points in the article and many good points in all the comments.  Except I would have to disagree with those implying that employers will train the employees.  Employers do not and will not hire someone that can't bring something to the role already.  They don't need to and it wouldn't be fiscally responsible to do so.  I'm a corporate trainer.  The last person a business wants to invest a lot of time and money in is a new employee.  They have a really high turn over rate.

And also, no one cares what your grades were in school.  No one.  That permanent record they dangled over your head.  Turns out to be not so permanent after all.  

When I was in grade school and high school I was aware, even then, of parents that just didn't want their kids held accountable for anything.  They just want them passed. God forbid challenge should be valued and appreciated.

The best thing I ever did for myself (and heartily encourage other kids right out of high school to do the same) was take a few years off from school and work.  Those menial jobs are easier to swallow when you are 18 and 19, you don't have the student loans hanging over your head and you are still living at home.  By the time I went back to school I was mature enough to understand what role my college education was playing in my professional and personal life.  

The profs were doing a fabulous job trying to educate us but only a few of us (some students are just more emotionally mature than I was at that young age) appreciated and took advantage of what they were offering (most just did what they had to do to pass and moved on).  I also took advantage of every special program the university had to offer because I knew what value it had.  Internships were huge because I knew how to network and make these work for me.  

Quite frankly, I think a lot of students are too young to make the most of their university experience.  And we should look at their expectations.  Help them understand where academic paths take them.  If you are going to be a French major you need to have a goal with that.  Because a lot of businesses are not going to see the value in a French major unless they need a bilingual employee.  Do you want to teach French?  Do you want to speak French?  What do you want to do with this program?  These are the careers this degree will lead to.

It isn't enough just to have an undergraduate degree.  What body of knowledge to you bring with you?  How do I know you can do the work I have?  Employers do not have to train you to do the job.  They have people out there who have experience or an education in the field so very little training has to be done.  

Has our standard of living just gotten so high that young adults right out of school have an expectation of how they should be living rather than a comfort level with having nothing?  I think this is society's expectation, not just the kids.  My Mom and Dad lived in a trailer while he was in grad school.  My Mom says, "No one had anything so we didn't feel like we were missing anything.  This is just how you started out."  

This is a multi-layered issue that has roots in our media images, socio-economic expectations, lack of understanding in career paths, etc.

[opportunity?]

It used to be that a high school diploma meant something. Then everyone needed a college degree to display competency.
Soon everyone will need a masters degree to have a level of competency needed. Then it will be a Ph.D....
Colleges could view this as a way to increase head count!

[bunny]

I fell out of my chair laughing when I read the part about how previous generations studied adults, looked up to them, and treated their elders with respect.  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.  It also reminded me of Plato, complaining serveral thousand years ago, of how ill-bred the young are.

[j Turner]

Now here is a topic worth talking about:  Yesterday I happened to see while passing a USA Today Newspaper stand a headline containing the following "The Thin Skinned Generation"  Below,  it said that the new generation of 20 year olds has been brought up with so much  praise, and so little correction  that they cannot accept criticism that might actually be helpful.   This is real source of our difficulties with preparing students for life--not that we are not experts in "the latest research about brain development and the learning processes"  or that we are not bothering to  " pinpoint problems with memory, attention, concept formation, and other key brain processes".

Levine's article is simply--very nearly silly

[Randy (unemployed educator)]

Would you not consider that Plato's remarks could
have been appropriate from one raised in a
behaviorally conservative culture (such as the
Southern U.S. of past decades) and that his remarks
were appropriate to the current conditions of his
day?

Author: bunny
Date:   02-17-05 15:28

"I fell out of my chair laughing when I read the part about how previous generations studied adults, looked up to them, and treated their elders with respect. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. It also reminded me of Plato, complaining serveral thousand years ago, of how ill-bred the young are [.]"

[%sig%]

[M.H., MDE]

After reading the running feedback on this topic since the beginning of the week, I've noticed a strange laspe of topic choice: parental accountability from a young age.

As a mother, a doctoral student, a university instructor/researcher I see this 'problem' from a wide range of perspectives.  Let me share.

From my 'mother eyes' I see my child's elementry grade school peers as lacking the fundamental drives/passions to encourage self-motivation.  Without a 'scheduled activity with specific outcome paramenters/expectaions' a majority of these kids can't make choices or find ways to turn on their imaginations.  What results is a group of children who are only interested in extrensic rewards/motivations.  I pity the employer that has to deal with that in 15-20 years.

As a doctoral student, I see my peers eager to achieve the 'big goal' but afraid of the process.  A lot of fear is driving this group... fear leads to inaction... it will be interesting to see what happens in 2-3 years...

As an instructor, I strive to plant seeds that entice students to reach beyond what the 'expectation is' for any given course/assignment and to strive for that far glimmer of potential filled imaginative knowledge.  One example I am fond of is, with outcome described for learning objective, I allow my students to create their own assignments to achieve said objective.  The first assignment is the toughest but after that, most of the students cherish this approach.  Employers benefit from this approach too.

Universities are not in the position to teach a child to think.  They are in the business of teaching a child to absorb a specific content knowledge area.  They are in the business of of knowledge transfer: both social, academic and professional.  BUT... the burden of preparing a child to get to that point is on the parent (s) of that child.  Period.  

M.H.

[%sig%]

[Mike]

Lots of different points in this discussion. I'd like to rephrase the basic assertion of the article. The author is saying that there is a mismatch between the skills and abilities of many recent college graduates and the needs and expectations of many employers. The author and many of those posting messages in this discussion then go on to blame various entities for that mismatch: parents, schools, colleges, the students themselves, or some combination of these. A relative few have focused on the other side of the mismatch: employers. I think it is important to rephrase the issue, because the way it is phrased in the introduction to the discussion (are college graduates poorly prepared for the workplace) prejudices the discussion. One could ask "is the workplace poorly designed and managed for educated people."

If the mismatch actually exists in any widespread way (a dubious proposition in my opinion, but worthy of exploration), then attempts to lessen the mismatch should focus on both sides of the transaction. Unfortunately, the corporatization of America and the nearly unquestioned acceptance of a business model of human endeavor has triumphed in the U.S., so higher education is likely to succumb to the pressure to produce disposable cogs in a consumerist machine rather than educated citizens.

[%sig%]

[MT, in the south]

I can see MH's point about parental responsibility--parents let their kids play 3 sports, etc, but given that kids are in school more hours in the day than when they are with parents (during waking hours anyway), schools must be culpable for the lack of critical thinking skills in college frosh.  I have a class right now in which a group didn't follow directions on a project--no one in the group took notes when I went over the assignment and they actually stayed after class to argue they deserved a better grade than a C.  When I pointed out that they failed to follow directions and that I am aware they didn't take notes, they still tried to argue with me.  We're graduating young adults who think they _deserve_ something even when they don't work for it.  I applaud employers for not hiring these people or firing them when they don't pull their weight.  I'm tired of wasting my time on these people who think I should give them the grades they want just because they put their butts in chairs every week.  We're losing the concept of the work ethic--by the time we get the students, it's already in their heads that if they just do the minimum, they'll be rewarded.

[CJ , Grad Student]

I agree with MH.  To me, the question in this forum is not whether today's graduates are prepared for the "real world."  Rather, it seems to me the question is whether education should be viewed as an end point or a launch point?  

After all, the real world is hardly static and we would be doing our students a huge disservice to prepare them only for the current conditions.

[Randy (Posh Resort Desk Clerk)]

I would think parents will have done their part
in preparing their children if they get them admitted
to college.  Although the responsibility of parents
to guide their young continues, colleges and universities
must take the responsibilities a level up from the
transfer of social, academic, and professional knowlege
to the application of same to  "real world" environments.   This would compare to the institutional functions of "finishing schools" in years past.

Randy


"...Universities are not in the position to teach a child to think. They are in the business of teaching a child to absorb a specific content knowledge area. They are in the business of of knowledge transfer: both social, academic and professional. BUT... the burden of preparing a child to get to that point is on the parent (s) of that child. Period.

M.H."

[%sig%]