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[german offshore]

i am thinking about accepting a position at a german university. it is a tenure-track position and comes with all of the benefits of that. if i choose to, i can stay here all my life as a tenured professor if i am tenured.

my question is a bit naive, i know, but i have only known US research institution. can one come back to the US? with a book and articles published? do US universities look down on having one's career start elsewhere?

i hope to return in four years. any ideas or advice? thank you in advance.

[germany offshore]

dear all,

i just checked some posts from way back when, and it does address this concern about coming back. so sorry about the double post.

however, if there is anything that you might like to add specifically about being in germany, then i would be thankful.


so far, i have found these things to be true: (I have been here half a year getting processed for the job)

1) they teach way more, like 12 hours per semester.

2) the source of fundings that were open to me are no longer, because there is so much more money in the US (i am in the humanities.)

3) the publish or perish thing is not as so harsh here.

4) i miss having writing workshops with colleagues since my colleagues here do not do that, for some reason.

anyone else in germany?

[German about to offshore]

> i am thinking about accepting a position at a german
> university. it is a tenure-track position and comes with all of
> the benefits of that. if i choose to, i can stay here all my
> life as a tenured professor if i am tenured.

What do you mean by tenure-track position (W1, W2, W3) ?
AFAIK such a thing doesn't _really_ exist _yet_ (i.e. W1 is not really tenure-track, and W2-3 is already tenured).
>
> 1) they teach way more, like 12 hours per semester.

I guess less preparation goes into each of these hours (so far no student fees, so less customer-orientation), and there is more support from research assistants.
>
> 3) the publish or perish thing is not as so harsh here.

This is changing (_very_ slowly).

What is your current position in the US ?

[%sig%]

[???]

German about to offshore wrote:

> What do you mean by tenure-track position (W1, W2, W3) ?
> AFAIK such a thing doesn't _really_ exist _yet_ (i.e. W1 is not
> really tenure-track, and W2-3 is already tenured).

yep and the path from one to the other is not exactly automatic!


> > 1) they teach way more, like 12 hours per semester.
>
> I guess less preparation goes into each of these hours (so far
> no student fees, so less customer-orientation), and there is
> more support from research assistants.


More support from teaching assistants and technicians. Not less preparation. STandard is higher.



> > 3) the publish or perish thing is not as so harsh here.
>
> This is changing (_very_ slowly).

You don't move on for publishing little bits of nonsens all the time. You need a solid piece of work.

[Germanon]

I don't see why you should not be able to come back? As I understand it, you are American, and so is your degree. You will have no problem to network with your previous American colleagues from over there, and you can organize sessions at conferences and publish in the same venues as if you had stayed here.

One of the greatest advantages of being over there is that the students are so much better educated and more interested. They all speak several foreign languages, know how to write, and are eager to discuss and participate in seminar discussions. They are more mature and more discreet, and most of them will only come to your office hours when they have a serious problem, like having their reading list for the MA exams approved. Also, you get more support from student workers, secretaries, and librarians, so your "service", "outreach", "student coddling" and other demands that American colleges and universities place on their professors, will only take up a fraction of your time...

Have fun!!

[W3 in Germany]

Germanon, I have to strongly disagree with you on much of what you wrote.  I am a US citizen with degrees from top US and British universities and have been in Germany nearly 10 years. I love my life in Germany but the comparison is not as rosy as you say.  I have had a W 3 in the humanities at 2 of Germany's most esteemed universities.

"One of the greatest advantages of being over there is that the students are so much better educated and more interested."  Depends.  They'll only be "better educated" if you educate them better.  Better than what?  Depends on what kind of students you're used to in the USA.  

"They all speak several foreign languages, know how to write, and are eager to discuss and participate in seminar discussions."  I teach English language and cultures (history, lit, cult studies) in English as well as European history courses in the German language and can say that our remedial English classes are full full full of kids who got high marks from their English teachers in Gymnasium "Leistungskurse" and/or on the Abitur)but whose skills end at choosing the correct verb form from a list of three in their exercise books.   They can't say much of anything (e.g. I get asked "What means XXX? about 10 times a day).  Our remedial writing courses (in German for native speakers of German) are similarly bursting at the seams.  I have to introduce many of my students to the concept of the paragraph.  Naturally the majority of US higher education institutions face similar problems with incoming students (whether native speakers of English or not), but here I want to insist that German universities don't "have it better"; there's no "they all..." whose praises may be sung.

"most of them will only come to your office hours when they have a serious problem, like having their reading list for the MA exams approved."  This is true -- it also means that they won't discuss minor (academic or personal) problems with you until they're major crises; often the first thing we hear about things is when our dean CCs us a letter from a student's lawyers.  It also means that you miss the opportunity to have real personal contact with students or to mentor them (for me that was a key reason to become an academic).

"Also, you get more support from student workers, secretaries, and librarians," Please please please tell me where this is the case and I shall try to get myself there immediately.  Student workers ("HiWis") are a godsend, but funding for them is not always guaranteed (and of course they come and go with the semesters).  Our secretaries are extremely capable but extremely overworked (1 secretary for 3 departments!) and we profs have got to do the majority of "administration" -- including maintaining our webpage, organizing student registration for courses, maintaining all student records (yes, my time is spent typing in student addresses and phone numbers into our lame database by hand...)   Three professors' signatures are required for students' exam results to be accepted by the university; two professors must grade exams....; and many exams are oral (talk about time-consuming!).  The admin is so extensive that I dream of "service" requirements on the US model.   As for the librarians I have met here at various universities -- they have seen their jobs as "serving texts" rather than "serving people", which means that any queries are treated at best as annoying interruptions to their work.  

My partner and I have chosen to base our careers in Germany for lifestyle reasons, not for career reasons, but the choice has served us well career-wise.  We have found our intellectual niches and communities and are happy.  Since working here, we've both had job offers elsewhere -- in the USA and UK -- so I don't think working in Germany precludes anyone from going back or going elsewhere.  

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
W3 in Germany

[Germanon]

Funny, W3, it sounds like you have never taught at an American institution.  : )

The librarians are terribly nice, but they take a year or more to order the books I wanted for my courses; I end up ordering most things by Interlibrary Loan or buying them myself.

As an assist. prof., I don't have access to the secretary who rather tells me what to do for her than vice versa.

I don't have 'Hiwis'.

I run my program by myself, maintain records of every student who has taken courses in my program, we have to maintain our databases and department website by ourselves, and the endless list of reaccredition/ self-reinvention requirements, reports, and statistics that we are supposed to submit, exceeds in pages the scholarly writing I get done (and that I am expected to do) by a factor of 3.

Most of my students start the language I teach as absolute beginners and never reach the faintest resemblance of fluency since the concepts of grammar ("too complicated") and vocabulary-learning ("you mean - by heart?!") are utterly alien to them, "and besides, everyone speaks American anyway".

In terms of writing, well, I have yet to see a student submit anything that could be compared to a German "Seminararbeit", and concepts of arguments, pro and contra, proofs etc. seem unfathomable to them. Plus they are hysterical about anything resembling "political" opinions or un-PC speech so about a third of humanities topics that I could discuss in a heated yet mature manner with German students (religion, society, race, gender relations, sexuality) are off-limits here.

It seems to me that you are comparing English-students in the US with English-students abroad, and that you çan't see beyond their language limitations. I'm assuming you teach in the target language and maybe also speak English with your students most of the time, and you mistake their language competency level for their overall intellectual level.

But if you  compared them to foreign-language students in the US, a more accurate comparison, the picture would be quite different...

By the way, I have been at two different "State Universities" in the US where I have worked for 6 years now. And I love it and have no plans to go back to Germany, but I often feel that teaching my undergraduates is more like teaching highschool at home, and I sometimes long for the days of "Hauptseminar-Diskussionen" where I really had to scramble and think on my feet to find good answers for my students whereas here, I mostly speak to the silent, hung-over masses who merely want to know if I will really quiz them on the past tense of the strong verbs because that seems, "like, really a bit much."

Sigh. Maybe I'm just homesick?

[germany offshore]

Hi,

Thank you all for your commments.

I am offered W-2, and will be eligible for W-3 in three years. (I guess I am tenured but I consider W-3 to be the real deal. ) The head of the department said that it used to be rather straightforward to get from this to that, but that has been changing. I am working on my writing so that I will have build up my CV and remain current. I mean, not only for career reasons, but because, what else are you going to do?

Actually, the deal is that I do love being in Germany. I have been here for the past six months, and now am looking at the lettter of offer for this position and suddenly got all wigged out by what that might mean for my career, if I choose to come back. (My advisor, who is quite wonderful and well-known in his field, asked me: what are you doing!!! you are going to ruin your career, blah, blah. He was attempting to be helpful but was bit scary since he knew that I had turned down other offers to take this. Random and foolish, he thought.)

I just got through my post-doc year at a great research institution and last year taught a private college with gobs of money. I never had it so good. Registerations were done for me; the libriarians were always helpful and willing; our computer interface system really rocked and was outstanding. Now, having been here for a little bit and seeing how the system works, I see that it is not the case here in Germany.  I should say that I am working in a mostly technical university and my specialty is in human sciences/social sciences, so I feel like an odd duck out anyway.  (Actually, what was surpising is that because of the special tax system for beamter the salary end up being not so low here.)

Anyway, it is so true! The students in Germany are generally very quiet in class, but I thought that was because they were not trained to inquisitive in a non-liberal arts fashion, but opinions they do have, especially about the US! (I have taught one class so far as a trial run and they were very, very anxious about the testing procedure, but that is what grade hungry students are like.)  There is one place where I know that is not true: ECLA in Berlin. But, for the most part, I find Germany to be more supportive for technical studies than the humanities or the social sciences. I may be entirely wrong, as I am new here, but that is my first impression.The saddest thing has been a realization that there is not the kind of fund and grant system here as there was in the US.


I have a German partner, and I moved here for life reasons, but now find myself wondering how to create an academic community and a life here.  Speaking of which, do you know of any human sciences writing group or anyone interested in such a thing? I really miss workshopping.

And, thanks for taking the time out to respond. I really appreciate it.

From Germany

[A question for W3]

Dear W-3,

Since you have been for a while and sounds like you have managed to build up an intellectual community, perhaps I can ask you how you were able to do that. There is also an American academic in Berlin who wants to start a workshop for humanities. If you are interested and/or know of any reading or writing workshop, could you please e-mail at kohlbumen@yahoo.com? I would really be thankful.

By the way, the only reason I emphasize Americans here is because my German is only in its infancy stage and I do not know any other academics. I know that ultimately one of the key factos in my happiness here will be building up a community of people whose theoretical interests and reading habits run in similar directions.

Anyway, thanks again.

g.

[Used to teach in Germany]

I moved from the UK to Germany and then back. I have to admit my experience resembles that of W3 in Germany rather than that of Germanon but maybe that suggests that conditions/students in the UK are better than we like to claim....I always taught in German for the record and also found the students to be badly prepared by their schools (esp. with German language..), and tending in the Hauptstudium to lack any real grounding in the subject, which left their essays, while undeniably lengthy, lacking in analysis and argument.
 
I'm a social scientist and also had trouble getting networked - just in case they are helpful to you, here are some of the strategies that worked for me.
1) the weekend seminars organised on all sorts of social science topics by the Evangelische Akademien (eg the one at Loccum) and the various Stuftungen esp. Friedrich-Ebert Stiftung are good ways to meet people. Much is in German but some is in English.
2) There are various e-mail lists advertising events etc but their existence isn't advertised. Ask younger colleagues / PhD students for the key ones to sign up to.
3) Writing groups are a bit of an alien concept. I found there to be big resistance to discussing early drafts of work - I think this is connected with a reluctance to be found to be wrong, you may have noticed already. It may be worth trying to start with brown bag lunches for PhD students and see if any of your colleagues show. You could offer to correct any English language publications for your colleagues and start discussions that way, but this can be very time-consuming and diplomatically awkward as many 'over-estimate' their English ability.
4) Do what many Germans do and participate in the activities of the British associations.....
5) Bite the bullet and work at the German - until you do, it really makes things a lot harder as even if a conference is in English, the socialising won't be.

[W3 in Germany]

Hi everyone.

Germanon -- I have taught (t-t) at one R1 university in the USA and had a teaching postdoc at another.  Your comments only underscored my point, which was to warn the original poster that your generalizations about Germany are not true across the board.  Like I said,  I know that many (or most!) US universities provide less than ideal working environments for their senior academics -- you seem to be in just one of those places.  But German universities are not the holy grail you describe, either.  As per my initial post, I do teach European history in German and taught European history in English in the USA; although I have had joint appointments in language departments that's not where I'm drawing all of my examples from.  The grass isn't greener; there are certainly green patches -- and ant-infested browned-out patches -- on both sides.

For those who asked about my ability to form a community; first and foremost I joined all the organizations in my field and went to the conferences (even when I didn't have anything to present -- it was expensive since I did it out of pocket, but I did it anyway and found it worthwhile).  I did a lot of cold-calling (emailing, mostly) and letter-writing to invite myself to various universities for informational interviews just so I could meet people in mine or related fields, see what they're working on and how they do it, see what kind of people they are, whether they have a sense of humor, etc.  I kept up on H-Soz-u-Kult and other networks, too...  I am in a "Babypause" at the moment so I am currently a little out of the loop (and loving it); I'll be back at my post in 2 years at the earliest.  (Now that's an example of green grass!).  

For those interested in building up networks, I'd suggest the aforementioned strategies of contacting and cold-calling; most universities have got colloquia for faculty which promote the workshop feeling; if your local university (or universities) doesn't offer something like that, contact a few others.  For literature and history folks, you can try going through the Deutsche Gesellschaft für Amerikastudien (DGfA) --  both their website and their mailing list can be great networking resources.  German professional associations are really important for those trying to network; there you'll find individual allies who will "promote" you by inviting you to give guest lectures or to participate in workshops and weekends.  Definitely worth trying!

To the original poster:  congratulations on the W2!!!! That's awesome!!!!

Yours,
W3

[W3 in Germany]

Just wanted to second "Used to Teach"'s comments and suggestions.  My German is great now but started off being very sketchy indeed.  UtT's give-and-take suggestion is a good one.  Most important piece of advice is not to be afraid to approach people (even if only electronically).  Just ask.  Like the rest of us, German academics are flattered if you can approach them about their work -- and the aforementioned DGfA publishes/operates about 50%/50% English/German.  Most colloquia I presented to early on took place in German but they welcomed my English-language presentations.  In my experience, "Amerikastudien" or "Anglistik" departments in general are pretty welcoming since most of those folks have spent time in Anglophone countries and they recall what it's like to be foreign or outside... (something which my Euro history colleagues aren't so aware of).  

Alles gute,
W3

[W3 in Germany]

One last note to Germanon...

I think I haven't done a good job of putting it across, but I do have a lot of sympathy for your struggles with students, admin, etc. where you are.  I know lots of people are in the same boat (whatever side of the pond they're on).  You sound like a conscientious, rigorous, and thoughtful teacher -- one who challenges her/his students and engages with them.  I wish you the best.  Maybe there's a compromise in there for you to relieve your homesickness -- a guest or visiting post in Germany, maybe?

Schöne Grüße aus Deutschland,
W3 in Germany

[germany offshore]

Actually, this has been really helpful. I felt like the only non-German human sciences English-speaking academic in Germany. It is true that Germans that I meet speak very coherent and often elegant English, but of course, English not being mother tongue, a strange kind of linguistic wall creeps up after you pass the informative stage of the language. It is enough to do business but it is harder to engage in a kind of higher level. But, honestly, many Germans have told me that they find English "too simple." Hmmm, well, I politely wanted to tell them, may be...

These suggestions are great. I feel as though I am a kind of a cultural kindergartner again, and I have to relearn some of the skills I thought I had mastered. Suggestions for networking and workshopping were especially useful.

And, thank you for the congrats, w-3.  Looking at the teaching load, it doesn't feel so great, but I know that I am super lucky even to have a job in Germany, the market being so opaque and few here. Thanks again, and have fun on your sabbatical, but you don't need me to tell you that!

Cheers everyone,

[W3 vs tenured associate?]

Very interesting discussion indeed!
I am a native German. I have just gotten a tenured associate prof offer at a top 20 department in my field in the US...And was invited to apply for a W3 at a very well known uni in Germany (but nowhere near top 20 in my field according to "world rankings"). I am thinking of not applying: I've been doing a lot of interviewing, my American spouse would need to move etc (the city is nicer than the American counterpart, though:)...My brother (on an academic path in Germany)  tells me that I would be crazy not to, as it would be a great step in my career if I were chosen.
Any opinions on this?
And what is involved in interviewing for a W3?