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[Returned from UK post-doc]

I don't have much more to add than what others have said, except...

London is a VERY exciting place to live in.  My wife and I lived there for a little over a year (although we had a much more comfortable $80k (US) combined during that year).  Even with that salary, we only had a small 2-bedroom flat up 2 flights of stairs in Putney (southwest, toward Wimbledon - a nice area near the tube and the main line trains).

We accepted the terror risk soberly (as you would have to do in any large modern city).

The British people are mostly wonderful, or at least entertaining.  And London is, quite frankly, the capital of the world.

I've lived in NYC, DC, and San Fran.  Now settled in suburbia (like a good fat American), but we look fondly on our time in London.

[GEL]

A small clarification that may be of interest. As an American on a student visa, as I said, my children and I all benefit from free National Health Service coverage. However, whereas they also get free dental care, I don't. I have to pay for mine. I'm glad I'm healthy, so the dentist is not costing me much. Isn't it hilarious the mistakes that people make when they read these posts? The original  poster's family seemed to shrink and grow with each post. My understanding was that we were talking about a couple with a pre-teen child of school age, so probably not costing an arm and a leg in childcare costs. Family of three, not five. Hope that was right.

[Alison Manzo]

Did some cheezy person call me a fantasist?
Honestly - these colonials - will they never know their place?

The main cost will be housing, but have you thought about doing "House-Sitting" - People like their dogs walked, plants watered, place inhabited by nice respectable people. Look out for the Lady magazine for House-sitter jobs.

I loved living in Brockley and most of what you'd call crime was the students from Goldsmiths doing Performance Art.
The Wardens and Assistant Wardens at Goldsmiths get fantastic housing. I think that is the way to go.

Don't miss out on the London experience. Even the bombings today can't dent the fact that it is a great place.  I always found the underground scary, and my heart goes out to those poor people. Horrific.

Why not contact the American School at St John's Wood. I bet your husband could find work there and another income would make sense.

[been there]

Whew, 29,000 a year for a family in London?  House-sitting aside (and please forgive my colonial perspective Alison), I could just get by in a so-so largish one-bedroom flat in Kentish Town on about that salary when I was single there a few years ago.  I took the tube (avoided taxis except in dire need), and budgeted my food and utilities.  But yes, I admit I did take in a concert or a gallery show now and again, and made sure that I had adequate groceries (little to no going out for meals).   I frankly would not do it unless the hiring university would also employ my partner.   Many universities outside of London are offering from low twenties to low thirties for a lecturer position, and outside the city, I think it might be doable.  But not in London itself.   One of the reasons I left London is that although it is in many ways, a wonderful, wonderful city, I was tired of its astronomical living expenses.   I wanted to get on the property ladder, and it just wasn't going to happen in London.  

My humble opinion, and others' mileage may vary.

[Yusif]

Previous respondents obviously have very different experiences and expectations.  I'm a U.S. citizen, currently teaching at a university in the States but about to take up a new job in Manchester.  My partner's a non-academic based in London.  He got permanent residency here last year.  A work permit ties you to your employer until you attain permanent residency, which takes four years.  Staying one more year makes you eligible for British citizenship.  A spouse or domestic partner is eligible for a work permit--I could have gotten one through my partner but didn't want to give up a tenure-track job.  At any rate, it should be perfectly possible for your husband to get a job.  I have a friend teaching at the University of London whose wife has done exactly that.

29,000 GBP would be too low to lead a middle-class life in London, but if your husband earns roughly the same, it would be feasible though not lavish.  I spent my last sabbatical here, and my salary converted to roughly 29,000.  For a single man (sharing a house!) it was ok; supporting three people would have been awful.  Even with two salaries, however, you'd probably have to give up on the idea of buying a house, or you'd need to resign yourself to long commutes.  

Most people strike me as pessimistic about transport costs.  I'd forget about a car, especially on that salary.  Travel card costs vary by the zones they give you access to.  (Central London is zone 1, and the zones go out to zone 6.)  There are some relatively affordable areas in zone 2, but they're mainly on the east side of London (Hackney, Clapton, etc.), which would make a long commute to S. Kensington.  Also, prices will probably be going up there exactly now, because that's where the Olympics will be held.  Zone 3 gets much more affordable.  A one-month tube travel card for zones 1-2 costs ~80 GBP.  I'm not sure about 1-3; it would probably be around 100.

The complaints about crime are not unreasonable, but they're speaking in British terms.  Standards of danger are very different here.  Urban violence is nothing like the worst U.S. cities.

My suggestion would be to try to get the job and then, should you get an offer, talk to a lot of academics who have experience living both in London and in the States.

[%sig%]

[HH]

 I was a postdoc in California on J and then H visa. I had no problem getting credit cards (two of which I still use 12 years after leaving US). Just fill in lots of applications until someone gives you a visa.

You should check on your spouse's tax situation. Why is he a 'resident' in a tax sense if no green card and no job? Living in US does not automatically mean you have to pay tax on UK income.

Also, a mortgage to buy a house. No problem! I go back to US ofen on B1/B2 visa and could buy a house, get a mortgage and rent it out.

Next, don't be too eager to get a green card in US unless you really want to stay for ever.  You can be obligated to pay US tax when you don't even live there!

Sorry, its off the point of the thread, except that for a non-citizen the USis really quite free and easy financially.



<

We have been so happy here, had dreams of settling down, buying a house, etc, but obviously we couldn't get a mortgage even if we wanted to.
>>

[Zara]

Yusif: "Most people strike me as pessimistic about transport costs. I'd forget about a car, especially on that salary. Travel card costs vary by the zones they give you access to. (Central London is zone 1, and the zones go out to zone 6.) There are some relatively affordable areas in zone 2, but they're mainly on the east side of London (Hackney, Clapton, etc.), which would make a long commute to S. Kensington. Also, prices will probably be going up there exactly now, because that's where the Olympics will be held. Zone 3 gets much more affordable. A one-month tube travel card for zones 1-2 costs ~80 GBP. I'm not sure about 1-3; it would probably be around 100."

Yes, a zone 1-3 travelcard is about 100 per month - which using basic maths adds up to around 1,200 per year. So pessimistic is absolutely right, I'm afraid. Multiply that by 2, and 2 adults are already paying around 2,500 pounds for travel per year if they live in zone 3 (child fares are cheaper, not sure what they are at the moment, but probably add on another few hundred for child travel).

However, zone 3 is still pretty pricey for housing, especially for a 2-bed flat, so a family of three would probably have to live out in zones 4-5, ie. for much of south or east London - which means the transport costs go up again. An annual travelcard for zones 1-5 is about 1,500 pounds per adult.

On balance, I don't think 3 people could live easily at all on 29K in London, even if they were not attempting to have a "middle-class lifestyle"....

Zara x

[Zara]

see:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2005/season/index.shtml

for travelcard costs in London for public transport.

Zara x

[British person]

Some employers will lend you money for an annual travel card then deduct it from your monthly pay- not a very good way to start your job, but you may need need to pay it all up front.

[A Brit]

a/non Brit wrote:

> if you do decide you want to drive to the Lake District, hire a car or take a cheap flight with one of the budget airlines.  

You have just exposed yourself as knowing nothing about the UK. I seriously doubt if you've even been there, let alone lived there.

Fly to the Lake District? That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard of. Which airport, "non-Brit"?  LMAO!

[HH]

You are sarcastic enough to be a Brit, Mr. Clever A. Brit. I think the post meant 'drive to Lake District' or 'take a cheap flight' to Budapest, for example.

Bottom line, 29,000 pounds is NOT a decent life for 3 people in UK. Either that idle husband gets a job, or don't go.

[Erik]

I was an American graduate student at two universities in the UK for a total of about six years: from 1994-2000 (for four years I was in London--SE24 (Zone 2), while attending London University). My thoughts?

If you go, go for a temporary stay--no more than two years, if you can help it. Advantages:

--Lots of excitement.
--You can live decently, but humbly.
--Transportation: You don't need a car to shop/get around London, but it might be nice for travelling durring the holidays.
--One word: Pubs

However:
--NHS is not as good as American system, in my book. There is less accountability if the doctors screw up (I broke my leg while there, and am still paying for the mess).
--L29,000 seems awfully low--live further south, and commute (again, I recommend Zone 2); on the other hand, it sound almost typical.
--Childcare can be pricy.
--Cost of living is more than you think, and don't forget, you pay for every second when you make a phone call.
--If your husband is an academic in the States, National Insurence is not comparable to TIAA CREF And Social Security--you may want to make sure you have a ROTH IRA in the States, and if you stay in London longer than 2 years, keep retirement in the States open.
--In short: If you are an academic, the life in the States, however bad, is still better quality than if you are an Academic in London.

[MonsterX]

"NHS is not as good as American system, in my book. There is less accountability if the doctors screw up (I broke my leg while there, and am still paying for the mess)."

My wife has a collection of stories about how the American system screwed up her leg for 2 years, but got charged big bucks, and how she got it fixed in 2 hours back in Europe, for next to nothing... but I suppose the grass is always greener, right?

"Childcare can be pricy"

In the Land of the Free childcare is virtually free, right?  As we all know.

"Cost of living is more than you think, and don't forget, you pay for every second when you make a phone call."

because it is really cheap to live in NYC or San Francisco, and telephone calls are free in the USA, too, it's that "Free Speech" in the Constitution

of course it is true that it is cheap right now to live in the states because the dollar is worthless, but that's only if you're being paid in €s or £s, arrgh, there's always a catch!

"In short: If you are an academic, the life in the States, however bad, is still better quality than if you are an Academic in London."

And you know this from being a graduate student in the UK?


As Rush Limbaugh once said, even the poor in the USA are richer than most people in Europe.  And if they aren't, well then, they are anyways.

[blogger]

Hey, Monster X, what crawled up your a** ?

Sometimes I think people use these discussion Forums as way to vent their bitterness and frustration at the world.

If you can't contribute in a positive way to the discussion, then get off.

[harimad]

Alex, contact an immigration lawyer who will be able to advise you on whether or not your husband can get a work permit. Many law firms will offer you an initial free - but brief - telephone consultation.