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[Alex]

I have made a short list for an IT job at a research institution in London (South Kensington). The salary has been already established, £29,000.00 and I am curious as to whether this is enough for a family of 3 (a couple and a pre-teen child) to live in London. I would need a work permit so I am guessing my husband won’t be able to work…

Any opinions appreciated

[chocky]

I think you might struggle on this salary alone. However, you should find out about your husband. I am not sure whether the rules are the same as in the US (my other half cannot work here at all on my visa). If he could earn a similar salary you could be fine. Check out rents -- pretty expensive anywhere in london, esp if you plan to be near Sth Ken.

A couple of fiscal advantages: NHS, so no medical or dental insurance needed, and if the position is less than 2 years you MIGHT be eligible for tax-free income through the UK-US tax agreement (I was offered this when I came to the US from the UK, but I turned it down as I hoped to be here longer than 2 years). Look into this as well, to find out whether it applies to you.

Don't be fooled by current exchange rates -- sure, it probably seems like a lot when you convert it to US$, but in London that is quite a low salary for one family. I strongly suggest you push for your husband to be able to seek work there, too.

[jeremy]

just don't live in london.  29 k will do fine in places that are an hour commute away by train.  you won't live in london on 29k though, as best as i can tell.    see if you can get an additional london stipend.

[Happy Camper]

Alex,

I also think you will struggle because London is a very expensive city. As a rule of thumb, unless you live in NY or SF, prices in London are in pounds what they are in the US in dollars (i.e. a two-dollar bottle of orange juice in the US will cost you two pounds in London).

Also, Kensington is a nice area but one of the priciest ones and not accessible with any salary below, let's say, 45 k£.

[Disgruntled]

And also the UK sucks.  The weather is terrible and you pay very high prices for goods of very low quality.  People are quite judgmental.  Overall, the sun has surely set on the British Empire.

[irony!]

>>People are quite judgmental.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I think someone said on the Sweden thread that they do grant a work permit to the spouse of a work permit holder. Should be the same for the UK, since they are both in the European Union. Something to double check, though, to be sure. I agree that 29k, though a decent academic salary by UK standards (it might already have a London stipend in it), is not enough to live in London. It would be enough to live on elsewhere, but not royally. YMMV, but I think the UK is a very pleasant and interesting place to live, in spite of the weather and the high cost of living.

[emigre]

My partner and I (no kid) have been living in London on 23k for the last 2 years, and I have friends who earn less. A lot depends on your expectations and lifestyle choices (how often do you eat out, and where? go out for a drink? how often do you buy clothing? etc.) Rent will be a major expense. Bear in mind that (a) flats in London are generally smaller and (b) unlike most us cities where the good/bad areas (and therefroe rent levels) are broad (i.e. west is good - east is bad), in London you can have dramatic variation in price within small areas. You'll have a pretty expensive street and 4 blocks down the road is much cheaper.
I'm pretty sure your husband will be able to work, UK immigration laws are more humane than the US ones.

[Alex]

thanks for your thoughtful responses.

My family is a very “cheap” one as we have to: in the U.S., most of our salary goes toward health insurance, car insurance, car expenses, rent and utility bills. We don’t have cell phone, cable, internet, we rarely buy clothes, rarely eat out and I try to walk and ride the bike whenever possible. My son goes to public school.

We however certainly struggle to get by here.

I love London and I think it is a very interesting place to live but I fear the finantial factor being a source of grief to all of us... plus being in a country wher my husband and I are not citzens (here at least HE is a citzen).

Thanks.

[jeremy]

you have to be careful about making assumptions about fiscal policies of the European Union.  Countries such as U.K. and Denmark did not sign certain treaties, such as monetary union, and as such are not always as similar as one would assume.

[chocky]

Alex, I don't think being a citizen matters two hoots. It only comes into play at all if there is an election! Other than that, on a day to day basis, all you need is the right to live and work there. Whether you are a citizen makes no practical difference, its not something we even think about in the UK (I think it is more important here in the US perhaps). However, I think you do need enough of an income to have a reasonable quality of life, and your husband might need to work simply to get out of the house, so I would check that out. I think you can manage in London without a car, esp if you are near a tube or train line, and flights to continental Europe and other UK cities are now unbelievably cheap on Ryan Air or Easy Jet, so you could still explore (you will probably have quite a generous vacation allowance). Rent is the big expense.

[%sig%]

[Euro]

jeremy wrote:

> you have to be careful about making assumptions about fiscal
> policies of the European Union.  Countries such as U.K. and
> Denmark did not sign certain treaties, such as monetary union,
> and as such are not always as similar as one would assume.


Yeah, but the issue is a social one here. AFAIK, its not automatic for UK visa holders spouses to have a work visa. So check. Or go to Europe...;)

[sportyspice]

One thing that's struck me is that in the US, benefits are typically in addition to your negotiated salary.  In the UK, national health service comes out of your salary in the form of taxes.

Even if you're renting, you may still be liable for Council tax (like property tax), which can be a significant expense.

At least in my field, 12-month contracts are standard (with 1 month paid vacation).  Thus, no supplementing your income with summer grant funding/teaching.

[%sig%]

[GEL]

Yes, I think just about everyone, except full-time students and possibly some other categories, has to pay countil tax when they are renting. And the council tax in London is probably very high (in the neighborhood of a thousand pounds a year or more? Anybody know?)

[a/non Brit]

From what I know it is very much more complicated for US citizens to obtain work visas in the UK.  Certainly postgrad American students who bring their spouses over find that said spouses cannot do any paid work.  As far as actual employees go, I’m unsure on the rules, but can tell you at least that American citizens married to EU citizens are able to get a work permit through their spouses.  If you really want to give yourself a headache, try trawling the truly horrific www.homeoffice.gov.uk site on visa and immigration rules. This is also a good idea rather than trusting my vague ramblings, as UK immigration laws (and fees) have been changing quite a bit recently.

Salarywise, I think that you probably could survive on £29 000 if you were frugal and were lucky to find a cheap apartment, but it would be a struggle.  The tip about living an hour’s commute away is not such a bad one, if you don’t mind the irregular schedules of British trains.  Living in one such British town, my partner and I (no kids) survived for a few years on two graduate stipends - about £10 000 p.a. for the two of us.  This was really sailing close to the wind and we had to budget carefully in order to buy groceries etc.  We learned to do without luxuries for a few years such as going to the pub whenever we felt like it - but everyone in our grad programme was living like that (except for the rich public school kids whose parents were subsidising them) and we all had a riotous time.  London would be a different story, though.  Ask the institution who is offering you the job whether they have any accommodation they can offer you - institutions sometimes do, and it may be subsidised or may be offered to you in lieu of part of your salary (but will cost you less than market rents).

Chocky mentions the NHS (National Health Service) but I was under the impression that Americans & Canadians cannot use it but must instead get private health insurance.  As a Commonwealth citizen my govt has a reciprocal agreement with the British govt and I am covered under the NHS, but I’m unsure whether this is the case for countries without this reciprocal agreement.  And it might be different for postgraduate students & university employees.  Any Americans resident in the UK on this forum who get free NHS treatment, please correct me if I’m wrong.

> I think someone said on the Sweden thread that they do grant a work permit to the
> spouse of a work permit holder. Should be the same for the UK, since they are both in
> the European Union.

No, the UK is definitely _not_ the same with regards to immigration and visa rules as other EU countries.

If you are a Commonwealth citizen - or your spouse is - or either of you have a grandparent born in the British Isles - it will be easier: I believe you can get a working visa on which a spouse may also be covered.  Check the Home Office site I mentioned above under ‘UK Ancestry’.

> Whether you are a citizen makes no practical difference, its not something we even
> think about in the UK

The citizened ‘we’ may not even think about it, but the non-citizened ‘we’ who will be eligible for it in a few years (after some hefty payments to the Home Office) think about it all the time and how nice it will be a) to not have to faff around with work permits b) to stop having to send your passport off for months to an office where they won’t send it back and won’t answer the phone c) to be able to work, live and receive free health care anywhere in the EU.  One minor compensation while we wait is the ability to vote as Commonwealth citizens in British elections, when British citizens don’t have the same rights in our home countries!

London’s an awesome, cosmopolitan, vibrant place.  You’ll have a wonderful time.  You will *not* need a car - you can get anywhere you need to via the huge and comprehensive public transport system, and if you do decide you want to drive to the Lake District, hire a car or take a cheap flight with one of the budget airlines.  Apart from anything, there is a tax called the congestion charge which slugs you several pounds every time you want to drive into central London (I’m not sure whether South Kensington is covered).  It is an utterly different place to the US in terms of car ownership.  As with western Europe, there is much more of a culture of walking, cycling and taking public transport.  Petrol is vastly more expensive than in the US, something US tourists remark on without fail - I’m not sure how much it actually is because I haven’t had a car since arriving in the UK 4 years ago and now I _love_ the exercise of cycling and walking and not having to worry about the expense of a car any more.  If with luck and patience your spouse lands a work permit, you’ll really enjoy it!  Good luck!

[%sig%]