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[s]

Today's column is about postdocs across the pond. How comes that Americans do not want to move abroad for 1 or 2 years? The column mentions some say it would look bad on your CV. In many European countries it is getting difficult to get tenure without foreign experience, and many departments deliberately send their fresh phd's abroad for one year.

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[anon]

because post-docs, unless required by the discipline, are just putting ph.d.'s into the grand reserve army of the under-employed.  it is an economic delaying mechanism disguised as re/qualifying mechanism brought on by the increase in the number of ph.d.'s produced in various disciplines.  if you can get a tenure-track job immediately after your ph.d., do that instead of a post-doc, else be prepared for a long haul as post-doc, adjuct, visiting, etc. etc.

[pondhopper]

It very challenging to move your life to another country for a couple of years, and I think that's why most folks don't consider it.  I had a post doc in Great Britian immediately after finishing my Ph.D. - 1999-2001.  Moving was complicated, rental flats in G.B. are abysmal (everyone buys), it is hard to get a driver's license, the exchange rate tanked while I was there and I had to pinch to make my student loan payments.  I also felt like a transient, as I knew I wanted to teach a certain type of university someday, and that I would go back to the US for that.  

But overall, the positives greatly outweighed the negatives.  I chose to go  because I always wanted check out Europe (I even turned down a post doc offer at much higher salary in CA).  I was able to travel frequently, for meetings and for pleasure (5 weeks vacation was standard where I was employed).  The European work ethic is more relaxed that ours - it was useful to see how scientists were able to do the job successfully, working fewer hours than their American counterparts.  I got funding to attend meetings back in the US, so I never felt out of the loop. When the time came to apply for faculty jobs, I encountered very little resistance to flying me in from Europe.  

I encourage anyone who wants to carry on in their career track, but have a little adventure along the way, to consider Europe.

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[sidey]

pondhopper wrote:

> after finishing my Ph.D. - 1999-2001.  Moving was complicated,
> rental flats in G.B. are abysmal (everyone buys),

Oh really?  As a phd/post-doc who has been here for 6 years, I can assure you that in no way does everyone buy (and with average flat praices at over 150k GBP in my part of the country - no, not London - you can see why).  I've lived in rental accom for 6 years and its been lovely.

[Social science post-doc]

I´m in Europe for a postdoc, and I absolutely love it!  I did not hesitate for a moment to take this job, and I am very glad to be here.

On the other hand, I can understand why some people might not be willing to consider overseas post-docs

1) apparently being overseas can make it more difficult to get job interviews in the US, since they would have to pay for your expensive air fare.  The American that had my postdoc last year got a good academic job without any problem, so maybe this depends on the field.   (Maybe social scientists in the "cultural studies" fields are more willing than some others to see overseas experience as highly desirable?)  Does anyone have experience with this?  I haven´t started applying for jobs from Europe yet, so I´m a little worried.

2) the cost and trouble of relocating across the ocean may not be worthwhile for a low paying postdoc position.  Luckily, I´m in a city with a fairly low cost of living, and I only had to move myself and my most important research materials.  If I had kids, a house, or a spouse with a decent job, then this may not have been practical.  Even so, the move was expensive.  Imagine how many books and files you need to ship overseas to continue your research!

3) frankly, even in academia, not everyone is willing to attempt living in a different cultural context.  Just look at how many people post on these forums that they are unwilling to live outside of the NE coast, or in a town of smaller than 2 million, or more than three hours away from their home town, etc., etc.  If someone isn´t willing to live in Chicago instead of NYC, then I assume they would not be willing to move to Leipzig, either.  Even for those of us with a lot of experience living overseas, it can be daunting to throw yourself into a totally different linguistic and cultural situation full-time for the long-term.  I personally just about lost it the night I was kept up until 3am by the crowds in the streets tooting horns and singing «Ninguém pára o Benfica» over, and over, and over again!  What is it with Europeans and soccer?!?

[anon2]

there are also structural impediments to taking european post-docs, usually in the form of student loans or similar debts systems, there is also the problem of getting hired after the postdoc, many colleges and universities do not have the wherewithall to bring potential hires to the u.s. from europe or elsewhere for an interview.

[Linnaeus]

And possibly the language problem dissuades many, as most Americans are effectively monoglots?  Language problems--aside from those who go to the U.K., of course, and I "hear" that some regional accents even there can seem like foreign tongues.  But I have no personal experience of Europe, this from one whose  passport has never been used, 'tho maybe soon, if the new border restrictions come into being for even a visit to Land of the Mountie and the Maple Leaf.

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[permanent nomad]

Well, my observation is that most Americans lack even the most basic travel skills, i.e. what is needed to survive a week of vacation in a place where you don't know where the burger joint is. How can you expect them to move to another country?

[bella]

I did a one year postdoc in Europe and it was the best experience of my life! Sure there were professors who thought I was taking a step back in my career to do it but there were also those who knew the life experience woulf far outweigh any negatives. Since it was only a one year fellowship, I secured a post-doc position in the states (I am in the sciences) before I left and they held the spot for me til I came back. It worked out great! I now have a tenure track position (<3 yrs post Europe) and have no regrets. Excpet that I wish I had stayed longer....

[%sig%]

[postdoc in europe]

Where are all these high-paid postdocs in the USA people are alluding to?  

Postdocs where I am, in Finland, pay in the low 30s, and that is in Euros.  Most I've seen in the states pay in the 20s, but once in a while in the 30s or 40s.  There's alot of variation, both in the US and Europe (though not too much in Finland as its all the same collective agreement), but I'd be surprised if post-docs in Europe make less than inthe US on average.  Except probably in Eastern Europe, or Portugal, or places like that.

I know I'm really glad to be paid in Euros right now, as it makes my student loans seem alot smaller.  

The language barrier is a problem, and sometimes finding a place to live and figuring out a new culture can be hard.  But really, we are supposed to be smart and cosmopolitan and all that.  Europeans come to the US all the time, and that's not any more difficult than being an American in Europe

[anon]

aren't the marie curie post docs pretty well paid?  around 45 is what i've seen there, but it was cost-corrected for geneva.   i've not seen any higher paid ones though.

[Legal Beagle]

Anyone have any comments/reaction to Asia or SW Asia, Indonesia or Malay?
I speak the language but heard China was a horror.

[s]

I checked the Marie Curie Incoming International Fellowships (that is, for non-EU citizens, coming tot he EU): you normally get paid more or less the same than what a postdoc in the host institution would get + living allowances.
e.g. for someone coming to Belgium (which I can recommend....):
47.000 EUR/year (is around 1900 EUR net/month)
+ yearly travel allowance ranging from 250-2500 EUR
+ monthly mobility allowance: 500 EUR/month, or 800 if you bring your family

+ you host institution gets 500-750 EUr/month which you can use for conference attendance, training activities, meetings etc.)

I read some horrifying low salaries for starting assistant prof at certain US univ. on this forum, so these postdocs seem to pay quite OK.

all information on: http://europa.eu.int/comm/research/fp6/mariecurie-actions/action/fellow_en.html

[Female Science PhD]

While many people have suggested the language barrier, what about just the simple percieved superiority of US institutions? In the sciences, with the exception of a few VERY well known european institutions, I have definitely observed this bias. This may result partly from experiences with foreign post-docs who may need to be "retrained" for more advanced instruments etc. The "European work ethic" also plays into this bias (which is why Switzerland would be generally better regarded than France ot Italy- no 4 hour lunches!). Just a thought.

[kofi anon]

Erm, I presume (hope) that by "perceived superiority" you are implying that this is an erroneous assumption that others make, and are not advocating this premise yourself! Or do you actually think this is founded in fact (as suggested by the need to "retrain" foreign postdocs for "more advanced instruments")?.

I think an issue here is that some people confuse "different" or "unknown" with "inferior". While non-US post-docs may not have experienced all the things common to US PhD programs, the flip side is that they probably have some skills that US post-docs lack!

As for what constitutes a "well-known" European institution, well, that depends on your perspective. It is quite likely that a US academic might not have heard of many European universities, even though they are highly prestigious and well-known across the pond. Once again, there is a problem of general ignornace of all things foreign, and the asumption that because I haven't heard of it, it can't be very reputable. (I am sure this works the other way around, too - many well-known US institutions are probably unknown to many European academics).

One tangential thought: I think it is interesting to hear so much talk about European programs being considered inferior. Yet at my school (a high-ranking public R1), Europeans entering grad school with a bachelor's degree are considered to already hold the equivalent of a US master's. This suggests their undergraduate programs are viewed as being at a much higher level than ours.