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[which2choose]

In reading more and more about Capella I have just learned that they will seek NCATE accreditation later this year.   That would be great.  Western Governor's college (which does not offer doctoral level degrees) already has received NCATE approval and is the first online school to do so. 

I wonder if 1) Capella will be approved and 2) Will their tuition skyrocket?

[zharkov]

In reading more and more about Capella I have just learned that they will seek NCATE accreditation later this year.   That would be great.  Western Governor's college (which does not offer doctoral level degrees) already has received NCATE approval and is the first online school to do so. 

I wonder if 1) Capella will be approved and 2) Will their tuition skyrocket?

Just a note of caution, "will seek....." can mean just about anything, from we are forming a study group who will recommend a program which will, etc. etc. lead to accreditation in 5 to 8 years -- to a firm commitment to become accredited in a reasonable time frame, say a year or two.  (And -- to put the financial resources in place to achieve accreditation in that time frame.)  It is very easy for a school to misjudge what is required for accreditation.

I believe Capella at one time was going to seek accreditation from the APA for its psych program, but got cold feet and backed out. (I think there are at least a couple of sides to that story, and it need not be rehashed.)

[twofish]

I think that the point is that right now the couple of on-line graduate colleges are still not respected in the field of academia. You may get a good education but it will not matter if you cannot get hired.

But the odds of getting hired in academia if you have a brick and mortar degree is so low that  I don't that should be a major consideration in getting a degree.  Right now there is such as oversupply of qualified people that if you do anything "off the beaten track" you aren't going to get hired.

Ultimately, I think this is going to hurt traditional academia, and so not being able to translate an online degree into a traditional academic job is a lot like not being able to get first class tickets on the Titanic.

[zharkov]

I think that the point is that right now the couple of on-line graduate colleges are still not respected in the field of academia. You may get a good education but it will not matter if you cannot get hired.

But the odds of getting hired in academia if you have a brick and mortar degree is so low that  I don't that should be a major consideration in getting a degree.  Right now there is such as oversupply of qualified people that if you do anything "off the beaten track" you aren't going to get hired.

Ultimately, I think this is going to hurt traditional academia, and so not being able to translate an online degree into a traditional academic job is a lot like not being able to get first class tickets on the Titanic.

Although twofish's assessment about the PhD job market is true for some areas in the humanities, it isn't the case in all fields.  Business fields, especially accounting, do not have the oversupply problem that other areas have.  Before beginning any doctoral program -- brick and mortar, online, ESP, whatever, a person needs to investigate the job opportunities in that field. 

[alto_stratus]

I have considered getting an online degree, but based on what I learned as part of my research process, would only do so as a last resort.  An online degree would not be perceived favorably in my field and might actually work against me.

Aside from that, I have my own concerns.  Now, I'm not completely inexperienced in distance learning.  Back in undergrad, I took a few distance-learning courses to supplement my traditional on-campus degree.  I worked very hard, and I learned a lot in those classes; but I believe my on-campus experience made my distance-learning experience as good as it was. 

My two biggest concerns about online degrees are:
-Many seem to be very money focused.  Even those managed by non-profit organization can be run very much like a for-profit endeavor, intended to bring in big money to support a school's on-campus programs.  I find that hard to support on a personal level.  It makes me feel like a walking dollar sign, and I find myself having  suspicions I usually reserve for car salesmen.  I don't want to feel that way about my program.
-I don't want to feel short-changed from a community perspective.  Community is a big part of the learning experience, and an even bigger part of the "life" experience.  To me, a graduate program is all about building relationships, learning, and even networking.  That's a vital piece of my experience that I believe is short changed in an online degree. 

Of course, I think there are many perspectives out there about online degrees.  What concerns me is that while they might work well for one person, it seems like they could be a big mistake for another.  I would encourage people to put the work in and really find out if the degree will get them where they want to go. 

For those considering getting an online degree as a path to a bricks-and-mortar job, I'd like to highlight a certain "disconnect" in the thinking process that one might not be aware of from the "outside."  I still think there's a mentality that you have to "buy into" the product you are selling.  Applying for bricks-and-mortar jobs when you've sunk your own efforts into an online program sends a certain message about what you find valuable.

I think this is a huge topic, and the more conversation about it the better.  12 years after I first heard of online learning, I think we're still trying to understand it. 

[which2choose]

My two biggest concerns about online degrees are:
-Many seem to be very money focused.  Even those managed by nonprofit organization can be run very much like a profit endeavor, intended to bring in big money to support a school's on-campus programs.  I find that hard to support on a personal level. 

I definitely notice some of the profit and nonprofit schools have different approaches to recruiting.  Nova and Capella rarely ever even call back.  Nova never asks for my name or number when I call.   I even went to an open house they offer for their Ed.D program and they didn't even ask me to sign in.  So I really do not think 'they' are out to get me and my money.  However, Walden and Phoenix never stop calling. 


For me, a school like Nova has a lot of credibility in the K-12 Education field which is where I am career wise.  There are many successful graduates from Nova Southeastern in the public school systems throughout the nation.  With Capella I find it much harder to find info about graduates and what they are up to.  I even asked them to put me into contact with someone and they never contacted me after two weeks. 


I think I am going to go to Nova Southeastern Online and blended, then apply to a fairly high ranked national university for the spring semester and see if I can get in the competitive program.  If not I will be on my way with Nova. 

[neniaf]

Very interesting thread.  I have no doubt that online education will play a larger role in the future, but for now, the problem as I see it is that most of those who get involved do so for reasons of convenience.  I have spoken with those involved in the program at Capella, among others, and their biggest enthusiasm seems to be for the speed with which they were able to get a degree, the time flexibility, and the fact that they didn't have to give anything up (other than money) to get their degrees.  The problem with this is that the doctorate is generally an acculturation process, which requires a sea change in mindset.  As annoying as it is to new doctoral students, most good Ph.D. programs try to completely break down your old ways of thinking so that you are open to new ones.  I don't know anyone in my own Ph.D. program, even the very brightest, for whom it was easy and who could have handled the process emotionally part-time while holding down a full-time job.  I do realize that there are other programs in other disciplines which seem to be easier, but that was my experience.  So no, I have never hired anyone from a part-time Ph.D. program.  I'm not saying that I won't ever do so, but in their current form, it is obvious to me that the graduates are not getting the full Ph.D. experience.

[bluesclues]

Why Nova?

[bluesclues]

This past year our superintendant retired abruptly due to medical issues.  One of his Assoc. Super. filled the interim position and did a very good job.  This Assoc. Super. had recently finished an EdD from Nova.  A few months later, after interviewing potential candidates, the school board elected to hire this Assoc. Super. for the Superintendant's position.  This person is doing a wonderful job, but those with PhDs from more traditional routes who serve in lower positions within the Central Office have not made their distaste for the Nova degree much of a secret. 

Before this all began, I enrolled in a different online university for a PhD specializing in Instructional Technology from Capella.  I chose not to tell anyone outsie of a small circle of friends since I wasn't sure I would finish the degree - I wanted to have a few semesters "under my belt" to see if I could juggle it all first.  In the meantime, I heard a lot of snickering from my colleagues about the new superintendant's Nova degree. 

I could not find this specialization at the doctoral level at any institution within 150 miles.  I was advised by professors at two local universities that Capella and Walden were respected in the area of IT, but probably not in Ed Leadership since I could obtain that degree at a number of B&Ms within driving distance (150 miles for me).  I made it clear that I would not be likely to pursue employment outside of the K-12 district I'd been working in for over 2 decades, nor did I specifically want administrative (pricipal or Assoc. Super) duties outside of a Virtual High School situation.  I most certainly did not want to teach at a university in a full-time capacity (I earn more as a classroom teacher now). 

I have a friend in the same program at Walden and feel we both are in strong programs, although Walden seems a little less spoon-fed than Capella IMHO.  We both are forced to do more research and interact than we ever were required to at the University where we both earned our Master of Education.  There, we could sit in the back of the room while those in the front row constantly led the professor(s) or TA off-topic.

I do believe that within 5-10 years the stigma will remain only in the eyes of those who think their traditional route is the only credible way to a diploma.  That's okay - I have an uncle who still refuses novacaine and his opinion really hurts no one except himself!

Good luck with your decision, but be open-minded enough to realize that there will be others who will question the validity of your degree.  I would have never chosen an online environment if there was a closer University offering the degree of my dreams in IT.

[zharkov]

I do believe that within 5-10 years the stigma will remain only in the eyes of those who think their traditional route is the only credible way to a diploma. 

I tend to agree and this is what I expect to happen:

In 5-10 years, most US undergrads will take a semi-standardized assessment upon completion, just like most high schoolers do now.  This data will be used to compare learning outcomes across colleges. Some online programs will do well, others won't, or more probably, those that don't do well in the assessment measurements will change their curriculum and methods to improve learning outcomes.

The result: Rather then comparing online education to bricks and mortar education from a base of ignorance, we will be able to do so based on data.

Although I don't expect standardized assessment for grad programs, I think that once online undergrad programs are comparable to bricks and mortar programs, then online education will generally become more accepted at all   levels.
 

[georgia_guy]

I don't have any bias against online delivered courses, and in fact teach a few myself.

However, I do think that a school that purports to offer Ph.D.s should have professional accreditation from the appropriate accrediting body.

Regional accreditation is not sufficient. Having recently been through a regional reaffirmation visit, and having also been through AACSB accreditation, I understand that these are two very different things.

In my opinion, regional accreditation is essentially the functional equivalent of a restaurant passing their health inspection. Professional accreditation is more along the lines of a 4 star rating.

I am curious though; Are there any brick and mortar public universities that offer Ph.D.s without professional accreditation? I know there are some fields that do not have a professional accrediting body, but among those that do, are there non-accredited Ph.D.s?

[zharkov]

I am curious though; Are there any brick and mortar public universities that offer Ph.D.s without professional accreditation? I know there are some fields that do not have a professional accrediting body, but among those that do, are there non-accredited Ph.D.s?

There are no accrediting groups for many or most non-professional doctoral programs.  That is, no group accredits English, Economics, or Etruscan Pottery programs, beyond the regional accreditor.

If you wanted to limit your analysis to business administration, I would expect you'd find some bricks and mortar schools with doctoral programs that are not accredited by AACSB or ACBSP (the other business accreditor).  The reason, I would expect, is funding.  I know of one ACBSP school that wants to move upscale to AACSB, and figures it will cost them a million dollars to get there.

But your point is well taken and having an accredited online degree would make it more valuable, at least to me.

[gardnerdl]

Hello all,

I am another Capella University student.  This conversation thread is very interesting, and unfortunately, very common.  One side is represented by Capella, while the other is represented by the brick and mortar schools.

I see these conversations take place at literally every educational website on the Internet.  It's a little disturbing that scholars are more interested in protecting the "ivory tower" than discussing topics of true academic worth.

I have never felt any prejudice from any scholar I have contacted to get data, previous research, or to verify the validation of a research instrument.  I've worked with scholars from the University of Michigan, Michigan Technological University, Carnegie Mellon, and now the University of California, Irvine.

Obviously, there will always be schools, universities, and organizations that will never admit that students from an on-line university are credible; change is a scary thing.  I would argue, however, that the same mix of students (excellent, mediocre, horrible) are present in any academic setting be it on-line or brick and mortar.  I would also argue that the criticism of an on-line university, is a little shortsighted, considering that most brick and mortar schools have moved into some form of on-line curriculum in the last 5-10 years.

Question:  If an on-line degree program lacks so much credibility, why are most brick and mortar universities moving towards this new educational medium, or have already adopted one?

Answer:  They are losing money to organizations like Capella, U of P, and other schools that offer these services, which obviously have a demand in the market place.

My degree at Capella will be the fifth degree I've earned over my 44 years of life.  My first degree was at a very prestigious engineering school in Massachusetts, my second from another engineering school in Northern Michigan.  My next two on-line degrees were completed toward the end of my 21 year military career to get current with technologies, before I retired in 2005.

An education is what a student makes of it.  If a student attends a brick and mortar school they can waste their time, just as easily as an on-line student.  On the other hand, both of these students could also excel in both of these environments.

Dave

[studentaffairsed]

This debate reminds me of the Ph.D. -vs- Ed.D. debate of years gone by.

I remember in grad school my advisor warning that if we were to go onto a doctoral program to avoid the Ed.D. programs because they are seen as "not credible" by those who hold Ph.D.'s.

You have to look at your career goals and aspirations.  Not everyone wants to work at a Syracuse, Penn State, Ohio State, Univ. of Virginia, etc.  Some of us are very content to work at community colleges, state universities, small private liberal arts schools.  Not everyone wants to be a brain surgeon-- and I would not want a brain surgeon who completed an online MD.  But when looking at my career goals, where I am professionally, and what I want to do next... a Capella Ph.D. in Education suits my needs.

In comparing notes with a colleague who attends a brick and mortar... (I am completing my dissertation with Capella now)... we both use many of the same text resources, have the same discussion topics, etc.  He has the ability by working for the institution to complete the full-time residency.  I am an hour away from two different doctoral programs, but cannot drive on a regular basis to either one.

Alternative education programs are here and more are being added as we speak.  This is education for the 21st century.  The old traditionalist will soon be replaced by those of us who have the vision and foresight to venture into unchartered territory.

We still conduct research, we still defend our dissertations, and we can and do publish.  Keep in mind that Capella started only 10 years or so ago, so the alumni ranks are small at this time.  But we are finding our place as Chief Student Affairs Officers, faculty, department heads, instructional designers, K-12 teachers and administrators.  We are being elected into leadership positions for professional state, national, and international organizations and this list is growing.

Because of the newness there is a keen awareness to be very particular about the programs and their effectiveness in meeting the educational outcomes.

[zharkov]

Alternative education programs are here and more are being added as we speak.  This is education for the 21st century.  The old traditionalist will soon be replaced by those of us who have the vision and foresight to venture into unchartered territory.

I agree with the sentiment, but caution that nothing happens "soon" in academia.

I think the key milestone to watch for acceptance of online grad programs is when one is accredited by a professional accreditor, like the APA or AACSB.  To my knowledge, neither has yet happened.

Gut feel, it will take 10 or 20 years for online grad education to be generally accepted.  The change will happen when people who have taught online or taken online courses become college presidents and VPs in large numbers. Much of the disdain for online ed comes from those in power with little actual experience in online ed, just prejudice.

And the milestone for Capella -- or any online grad program -- is when an alum becomes a college president.  That has already happened for the pre-online non traditionals, Nova and Union.