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[mckibbinusa]

Well, I've been reading the various "opinions" about how well "online" degrees (particularly doctorates) are being received in higher education, and I felt a need to comment further since my last posting in June.  Being a graduate of an online university, I was initially senstive to certain of the comments and conclusions.  However, after rereading the postings and thinking about it, I realized that there really is a great deal of misunderstanding about what distance learning is and what it could is becoming.  Because distance learning is so new today, it is particularly important that we avoid trading "misinformation" and apply ourselves to the best information we can available about "online" education systems, technologies, and students.  One site that is rich with documented research and informed opinion about distance learning is found at:

http://www.distance-educator.com/intro.htm

The site's moderator is Dr. Farhad Saba of San Diego State.  I would encourage anyone who is seeking informed reports about the current state and future of a distance learning degree to surf this site.

For the record, I earned my doctorate from Capella University and I am very proud to be a Capella alumni.  Moreover, I am also an alumni of Georgetown, Temple, the Command & General Staff College, and the Defense Language Institute, so I have "paid my dues" so to speak.  For anyone considering online learning and degrees, my advice is to take a balanced (i.e., scholarly) approach to evaluating your options, and then to choose the option that best fits your needs and purpose.

Best wishes,

WILLIAM J. McKIBBIN, PhD
http://www.mckibbinusa.com

[twofish]

And I'm sorry to say, but until proved otherwise, pretty much everyone in higher education is going to assume that a Ph.D. from a bricks-and-mortar school (let's just say the University of Iowa, though that's not where my doctorate is from) is better than one from Capella.  People in higher education serve gatekeeper functions all the time, from admissions to grading to letters of recommendation to graduate admission to hiring decisions. That's how it works.

The trouble is that there are starting to be far more people outside of the system than there are inside, and pretty soon we are going to reach a point where the gatekeepers are going to be irrelevant because they've left too many people on the outside.

FYI, I did the last two years of my Ph.D. via distance learning (I was in Austin, my adviser was on at the supernova research school in Santa Barbara). 

For the same reason that people will generally assume that a doctorate from Yale is better than one from Western Michigan (except, probably, in creative writing), they will assume that a doctorate from a good bricks-and-mortar university (even if it's a "bricks-and-clicks" degree) is better than one from Capella.

People in general can be amazingly misinformed about the quality of a degree.  At least in the physics world, what school you got your degree from is more or less irrelevant.  What matters is who your advisor is and who was on your committee.

One thing that you should remember is to focus on quality, and to do what you can to get a good education.  Institutions can change pretty radically, and what is prestigious and high-status now may be very different twenty years from now.  If you have done your job educating yourself then you can change the institutions to fit how you think they should work, rather than being passively molded by those institutions.

And that annoys the gatekeepers......

[twofish]

Just to be clear, I'm referring to those states with a higher ed commission that oversees both private and public programs.  To use Dale's example, if my private school wanted to offer a PhD in history, say, the state would be unlikely to OK that.

Which states?  I might be misinformed, but I'm not aware of any state higher education commission that has veto power over private doctoral programs.  The regional accreditators do have veto power, but they aren't state institutions.

[twofish]

Online education should not be obtained at the BA level unless in extreme circumstances or the case of the non-traditional student.  The on-campus living experience of the BA Degree is critical to the development of young adults 18-22.

I tend to disagree.  My observation is that college forces people too quickly into an academic environment before they are ready for it.  This causes lots of problems.  I think that campuses would be a lot better off if most people that end up in colleges, get a job first and leave more or less independently on their own, before they go to college.  The fact that people *don't* feel that this is a realistic option causes a huge number of problems (like trying to teach people that don't really want to learn).

It's also not either/or as far as online learning.  Some things require face to face interaction, but that can be done a lot more flexibly than is done now.

I taught as adjunct faculty at University of Phoenix, and although I have a some issues with their approach, the thing that I was *really* impressed by was the quality and enthusiasm of the students.

What will "close the circle" is once Capella and UoP start having extensive alumni networks that serve as career networks and fund raising networks. 

[twofish]

I'd appreciate input from employers who have done some hiring, and see how they have considered online degree recipients.

Speaking as a former astrophysicist and someone who has done hiring in the software industry, anything that shows initiative and the desire to better yourself looks very impressive in industry.  One thing that is interesting about software is that there is actually very little emphasis placed on credentials.

[twofish]

Just to inject another note...

The trouble with discussions of education and jobs is that it tends to be focused on the current job environment, whereas any useful degree should be useful for the job environment decades from now, and if a degree program has done its job, you should find yourself able to "change the world" if you don't like the way it works now.

With regard to prestige and job searches.  Most of the value of a degree comes in getting hooked in to the alumni career network and teaching you some of the secret handshakes.  This creates a circle of power, because once alumni get certain jobs they can relay power, money, and information back to the school, and this is where most of the elite institutions, get their power, influence, and prestige from.  The distinction between for-profit and non-profit is a little silly since Harvard and MIT are in some sense as "for-profit" as UoP and Capella are.

There's nothing keeping Capella and UoP from creating this sort of circle of power.  Whatever short comings, Capella and UoP have with respect to teaching methodology, they aren't those that can't be fixed.

Anything I can do to help you, let me know.  My own view is that universities like Capella and UoP are going to be extremely powerful in a surprisingly short time, and part of my agenda is to make sure that my alma mater isn't left behind in the new world order.  (And I'm not the only one at my alma mater who is concerned about this.)

Also if someone can send me a private message, I'd like to find out more about Capella's culture and environment especially in comparison with University of Phoenix.  In particular, I'm interested how Capella is dealing with the one issue (i.e. creating faculty communities) that is going to be an explosive problem for UoP in the coming years.

[zharkov]

Just to be clear, I'm referring to those states with a higher ed commission that oversees both private and public programs.  To use Dale's example, if my private school wanted to offer a PhD in history, say, the state would be unlikely to OK that.

Which states?  I might be misinformed, but I'm not aware of any state higher education commission that has veto power over private doctoral programs.  The regional accreditators do have veto power, but they aren't state institutions.

I know specifically about OH, NH, PA, and NY, but for most states, there is some sort of education commission that gives colleges the legal right to grant degrees.  A private college can't just set up shop and decide to award degrees; it needs some level of state approval. That approval process may consider (a) the college's ability to offer quality degrees and (b) the need for that degree in the state.

[shmdalum]

After significant thought and actually reading the entire discussion thread I felt the need to respond to what I myself consider to be a very heated and somewhat one-sided discussion.

First a little history:

Upon graduating high school from a private preparatory institution in New York I realized that I was not ready for college and put my Junior Reserve Office Training Corps experience to work. I joined the U.S. Air Force and served honorably for 8 years, at which point in time I was medically retired for injuries received during my military service.

Upon being discharged I had no idea what to do with my life, after all it is difficult to find work in my trained military career field with the disability I sustained. At this point in time I had 8 years of aircraft propulsion experience and 54 credits towards an aviation technology degree from the Community College of the Air Force.

I was hired by General Electric as a Research and Development Gas Turbine Combustion Laboratory Operator. After six months with General Electric I realized that I would not be afforded the opportunity for advancement without a bachelor’s degree as a minimum, regardless of military experience (Corporate America’s lack of perceived value of military training is ridiculous, however that is another topic).

I decided to pursue my Associates degree in 2002 and completed the necessary requirements in 2003 through Excelsior College (Formerly Regents College). At this point in time I did not want to loose momentum and began my Bachelors in Business with a concentration in Management and Leadership through Capella.

I completed the BSBM in 2005 (Summa Cum Laude) and at that time was a field engineer for GE. Again not wanting to lose momentum I decided to pursue my graduate degree (a Masters of Science in Organization and Management, with a Leadership Focus). I will complete my graduate course work in just 14 more weeks.

I now serve on the Board of Directors for The Society for Maintenance and Reliability Professionals; serve as the Director of Maintenance and Reliability for a global chemical company; and teach several business course for a community college.

As I complete my graduate course work I have been thinking a great deal about pursuing a terminal degree in business, however my travel schedule makes it difficult to attend a brick and mortar institution (as it always has).

I have decided to continue, and pursue my PhD from Capella. The quality of education at Capella is excellent, and I recommend it without reservation. Though on-line education may not have the credibility that it should today, rest assured it will in the near future.

Education is what you make of it in my "on-line educated" opinion. I have encountered both the good and the bad. The key to the educational journey is making the most of it, and actually learning and applying those learning’s to ones career (which Capella does an excellent job of).

Technology is one of the vital catalysts in all that we do, even education, and those who cannot see that are in the words of my esteemed colleague “aandsdean” delusional.

[twofish]

I have decided to continue, and pursue my PhD from Capella. The quality of education at Capella is excellent, and I recommend it without reservation. Though on-line education may not have the credibility that it should today, rest assured it will in the near future.

A really big part of the quality of an institution is the quality of the students coming in and your biography is pretty typical of the type of person who does attend University of Phoenix or Capella.  That makes teaching *much* easier since you are focused on presenting the material and don't have to worry about a lot of the "classroom management" issues that people in brick and mortar classrooms have.

For example, I never had to worry about motivating students or attendance policy issues at UoP.  Someone who is 18 year old away from home for the first time is going to need those things.  Someone who is 35 years old, retired military with a career which they are mildly dissatisfied with, is just going to show up and do the work.

[hedgeyourbets]

I want to thank you all for this topic thread. I have researched online education for the last few months and this is the first serious discussion on the merits and quality of online versus traditional methods that I have found.

What I take away from this series of postings, which seems to fit what I see here in the corporate world, is as follows:

1.   As long as the experience is present and the candidate qualified, hiring companies for non-research positions in the corporate world care less than the academic world about the grantor of the degree, as long as the grantor is an accredited institution.
2.   Academia is still skeptical of online education and will differentiate the granting institutions of a job applicant’s degree, especially when the candidate applies for more Research-Oriented positions (Chemistry professor versus Human Resources manager).
3.   If you need the Networking benefits of the degree granting institution, large brick and mortar campuses still hold a significant advantage.
4.   Conversely, if you are well into your career and are using a degree to increase your promotion opportunities and advancement chances, then online degrees have an equal footing. I would propose the online degree, in this scenario, would be a more desirable track, as you are more able to complete it, due to scheduling flexibility.


    What I find interesting is the speed with which brick and mortar institutions are embracing the online offerings. Here in the Boston area, Harvard, Boston University, Northeastern university, University of Massachusetts and dozens more large institutions are all jumping onboard. University of Massachusetts lets you complete an A.A., B.A./B.S., M.A./M.S. and PhD degree completely online. Harvard will let you complete all but 6 courses online for their M.A.

It looks like it will only be a short time until the line blurs between legitimacy and acceptability of the formats. Ten to fifteen years ago, no one would have looked twice at an online degree, as they were not accepted by anyone as legitimate. Today, we intelligently and passionately debate their equivalency. I wonder what tomorrow will bring.

Thank you all for the wealth of information I found here.

George

[skip2d2]

I would like to offer a different perspective on this discussion. I am a Ph.D. candidate at Capella and expect to defend my dissertation in the next two or three weeks. My dissertation has been approved by my committee and is currently undergoing final review by the Faculty Chair at the school.

Do I expect my Capella degree to provide the credibility I need to open doors? No.

Are doors already open to me now that would not have been opened had I not pursued this degree? Absolutely!

The explanation for this apparent paradox lies in the fact that it is not the Capella name that is opening the doors - it is the quality of education that I have received, coupled with my willingness to apply what I have learned.

I entered this degree program with full recognition that there were two strikes against the Capella name. First, there's the perception that on-line degrees are by their nature inferior to degrees granted by traditional schools. Second, there's the issue of Capella being a for-profit institution. Having grown up in an academic family (both son and grandson of full professors), I knew from the start that these two facts would pose challenges. However, I looked at my position in life (age, career, ambitions, etc.) and decided that my options for pursuing a traditional PhD were unworkable and showing no signs of improvement. On line was the only option that would realistically fit into my situation. I surveyed the landscape and decided that Capella offered the best option for me. I didn't like the fact that they were a for-profit institution, but decided to give them a try nonetheless due to the lack of acceptable non-profit alternatives. Despite my trepidation, I applied, got accepted, and jumped in with both feet. Since then, Capella has exceeded all my expectations.

So what doors have been opened? First, a few months ago I submitted my first-ever article for peer review (a derivative piece based on my dissertation research) - and had it accepted! Second, despite being primarily a practitioner, I was recently selected as 2008 co-chair of an academic conference held each year at one of the two well-known schools in Cambridge, Massachusetts (and the other co-chairs are both tenure track academics at traditional schools). Third, I have had two different individuals approach me (unsolicited) about doing collaborative research and co-authoring scholarly articles. (It is worth noting that each of these individuals has a PhD from a top-tier traditional school (one east coast, one west coast), each of them has already been published, and one of them has published multiple seminal articles in this field.) Fourth, I have been approached (again, unsolicited) by a traditional bricks and mortar school about becoming an adjunct to help them expand a particular masters-level program into the on-line arena. I could go on to list a fifth, sixth, and so on, but I think I have made my point.

So, what was Capella's role in all this? In a nutshell, they gave me all the tools I needed to succeed and taught me how to use them. It was then up to me to pick up the tools and put them to work.

Bottom line -- if you're looking for a "shingle" to hang outside your door, then look to the traditional schools. If you are self-motivated and looking for a high quality education, then consider all the options available to you and go with what fits best within your individual life circumstances.

My Capella Ph.D. alone will not get me very far. However, when combined with a credible track-record of academic and practice-related achievements, the quality of my Ph.D. will speak for itself.

Hope this helps . . .

[universityguy]

Capella University has just withdrawn their application for accreditation from the American Psychological Association (APA). This information may be found on the APA site at:

http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/initial_accred.html

Considering that Capella has been trying to obtain APA accreditation for many years, this is rather enlightening news.

[zharkov]

Capella University has just withdrawn their application for accreditation from the American Psychological Association (APA). This information may be found on the APA site at:

http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/initial_accred.html

Considering that Capella has been trying to obtain APA accreditation for many years, this is rather enlightening news.

I took a look at the APA site, and was wondering if the APA ever accredited any online / distance learning / non-traditional program.  My take is that some of these old school accreditors (APA, perhaps the ABA) put up barriers to prevent new and non-traditional programs from gaining entry into "the old boy's club."

[skip2d2]

The background on this was communicated within the Capella community earlier this year, and Capella unambiguously stated at that time that they intended to withdraw their application. The application for APA accreditation received a "deferral for cause", with the specific reason being that the program specified in the application was too new to be accredited. This had to do with Capella changing their School of Psychology doctorate from a PhD to a PsyD. Rather than me trying to paraphrase, here's a direct quote from a letter they sent to all affected faculty and learners back in May:

"Capella had been optimistic that the Committee would consider the learners who transferred into the PsyD
program from the PhD program in evaluating the program’s longer-term outcomes (such as state licensure
and doctoral-level employment). However, the APA committee has declined to do so."  They went on to state, "At this time, Capella intends to withdraw its application. Withdrawal has no prejudicial effect on a future
application; each new application starts with a clean slate."

As for whether APA (or ABA, etc.) are willing to accredit online programs, it's worth noting that the Fielding Institute is APA accredited (and has been since 1991) -- see http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/clinpsyal.html. Although not completely on-line, Fielding also targets adults, and uses a non-traditional educational format to do so. I suspect it's only a matter of time...

[tradingpaint]

Ok, this posting is vary late, but I just found this forum and had to comment.  I am currently attending Capella university as a Graduate student and love the online experience.  I have 3 children at home and a full time job.  I absolutely cannot attend a typical school.  Been there, done that, and graduated with a B.S.  Anyway, I have attended several job interviews and even though Capella is online, I get a large amount of respect for pursuing my Masters degree.  As a matter of fact, I had a lot of trouble here in northern NY because for a while I was frowned upon for even having a degree at all.  Most employers around here require a GED or diploma and consider me overqualified.  Most of what I hear, however, is in regards to the fact that virtual classes are much more difficult than real ones.  This is because there is much writing involved.  I have to turn in 4 essays a week and at least 1 paper.  In a real classroom, its usually just a couple papers and/or a couple tests and thats it. 

So anyone who tries to badmouth online programs simply suffers from not knowing enough about them. They are probably the old farts who aren't that skilled with computers anyway.  Its time to leave the stoneage behind and step into a virtual classroom.
Kristina