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[vwhisler]

In 2004, I  completed Capella's PhD program, and I am currently interviewing for a tenure track faculty position as well as an executive dean position. I have been told that I am the top candidate for one of those positions, and within the top five for the other--both were national searches. I also recently won the highest award (for teaching excellence) given in my statewide community college system. Without my degree from Capella, none of this would have been possible. My Capella degree has opened doors that I never imagined possible for a small-town wife, mother-of-five, and grandmother!

The truth is that online degree programs make education more accessible. Yes, people are still making extreme sacrifices to attend brick-and-mortar PhD programs, but in today's technologically-connected world, seat time is just not necessary to earn a top-quality degree. Attending a brick-and-mortar school would have imposed barriers that could have kept me from earning my degree. Two of my colleagues began their PhD programs at on-ground institutions before I began mine, and they are still struggling to complete their degrees.

The debate will continue regarding the quality of online vs. face-to-face (f2f) teaching and learning. Meanwhile, as consumers become more and more technically savvy, enrollments at online universities will continue to skyrocket. As long as the university is approved to confer degrees by the same accrediting body as the brick-and-morter schools, the experts are saying that the quality is comparable. Capella is accredited by the North Central Association of the Higher Learning Commission. Accrediting teams are made up of professional educators from all types of institutions.

I am currently teaching faculty in our community college system the pedagogy associated with online teaching and learning. The demand for online classes at our institution is beginning to exceed the demand for f2f classes. Our faculty members are amazed to learn that the pedagogy/andragogy used in online teaching can be transferred to their f2f classes to make them better. Soooooo, at least at my institution, the quality of teaching and learning in online classes is leading a quality initiative in f2f teaching.

I agree with the comments that I've read regarding individual success and accomplishment. If you are a strong, intellectually gifted student, WHERE you earn your degree is not nearly as important as its successful completion and application. It's possible that somewhere along the line you'll run into administrators who don't share the vision of online teaching and learning. I wouldn't choose to work in that environment myself.

[whitenortherner]

Do people take comments like this by aandsdean seriously?  How constructive?  Online education is here to stay and will only get bigger and stronger.

[case_insensitive]

I don't argue that online education is here to stay. That's good.  More ways for more people to learn is... well... great!

However, I do think that many university academic departments (certainly not all) are unlikely to consider a candidate with a PhD from an online university.  At my current RU/H department, they would be removed in the first round without hesitation. Right or wrong?  Who knows. But that's the fact.  PhDs from this sort of university are not yet given the same consideration of PhDs from other quality traditional schools.  If more top scholars go to work at these online universities, then we can expect their graduates to gain more acceptance over time.  In some fields, it's not where you went to school but who you studied under.

case insensitive

[sirkdn]

to whitenortherner: Yes, I (for one) do take what aandsdean says seriously.  AND you should as well...

[whitenortherner]

Who turned on the grammer police?  Sounds like a issue of privilege to me.

[thundering_]

to whitenortherner: Yes, I (for one) do take what aandsdean says seriously.  AND you should as well...

I, too.

[aandsdean]

whitenortherner,

I'll tell you what.  When you're posting on the internet about how fabulous your educational experience is in a doctoral program, it is helpful for your post to exhibit rhetorical, lexical, and grammatical mastery better than that of a B+ college sophomore.  The post by your colleague vwhisler is much more credible (and creditable) as it demonstrates these qualities thoroughly, despite the fact that it sounds a bit too much like a Capella brochure for my comfort.

It's not an issue of privilege at all:  when you want to make the point that you are a well-educated person, it's not a bad idea to sound like one.  As for the privilege of having a doctorate from a bricks-and-mortar university, well, I earned that one.

As for vwhisler's comments, with all due respect teaching and administration at a community college are not the same thing as they are at a four-year college or (even more so) a research university.  If they were, CC's would require a doctorate for most all positions just like colleges and universities do.  And relying on accreditation as a guarantor of quality is pretty naive--certainly, being accredited is the bottom line qualification for a school, but if you've gone through accreditation or reaffirmation processes (I have, thrice), you'll know that it's mostly about making sure a school has adequate financial resources, a properly credentialled faculty, an assessment plan that's at least sort of working (this only recently), and established governance policies and practices.  If you look around you'll see that unaccredited institutions are mainly profit-making semi-scams, sectarian beyond reason, discriminatory, or so woeful it's embarrassing.  If you think about the schools around the country that are accredited, and then check out the few that have lost accreditation recently, you can see how low the bar really is.

There is certainly a place for online learning.  My school uses it quite often where it's helpful--for instance, in our small adult-ed program, our rather larger overseas programs, and as enrichment in some of our major programs.  I take seriously the issue of access, and the internet certainly provides access in a way that other delivery methods can't.  But to claim equivalency between a Capella doctorate and one from even a moderately respectable non-virtual school is simply self-delusion, even if your experience has been satisfying and your degree has gotten you what you need professionally.   

[diana_prince]

Hi,

I've just started taking online classes at Capella University, and I'd liked to know how much credibility online schools have in the four-year university world.  I'm taking PhD courses and hoping to land a better Academic Administration position.  Would getting a PhD from an online school help or hurt me?

[%sig%]

Would Capella give you a list of graduates from the Ph.D. program who will share their experiences with you about the job market?

Colleagues of mine who hold a Ph.D. degree from Capella also had prior military experience. A lot of employers understand that U.S. military personnel travel around the world and move frequently either for Temporary Duty or for a Permanent Change Station. Pursuing lengthy Ph.D. programs at a traditional university doesn't really provide the flexibility needed. However, with their previous degrees and professional military education, the Capella Ph.D. holder is well-respected, depending on their employers' perspective. It sounds to me like some of the university admins posting here are a little threatened by the competition Capella is presenting. You may not want to listen to their advice.

[aandsdean]

I'm not threatened by Capella at all, just as I'm not worried that the United States is going to be invaded by Singapore. 

Someone who's been in the military is a completely different deal from someone who just wants a Ph.D.  Moreover, I would imagine that most such people aren't looking for positions in academe, but in business, and businesses, from all reports, care a lot more about whether you have a particular degree at all than they do about where it's from.

Here's an exercise:  Ask Capella to provide you with a list of their doctorate-holders who have a tenure-track position at a respectable four-year college or university.  I'm more than williing to be that this list can be contained on a single page, particularly if you exclude faculty in business, education, and IT.  That's really the text for the question that started this thread, and it would provide the answer.

[diana_prince]

I'm not threatened by Capella at all, just as I'm not worried that the United States is going to be invaded by Singapore. 

Someone who's been in the military is a completely different deal from someone who just wants a Ph.D.  Moreover, I would imagine that most such people aren't looking for positions in academe, but in business, and businesses, from all reports, care a lot more about whether you have a particular degree at all than they do about where it's from.

Here's an exercise:  Ask Capella to provide you with a list of their doctorate-holders who have a tenure-track position at a respectable four-year college or university.  I'm more than williing to be that this list can be contained on a single page, particularly if you exclude faculty in business, education, and IT.  That's really the text for the question that started this thread, and it would provide the answer.

He was not asking about TT positions. It's another assumption that everyone who earns a Ph.D. and goes to work in higher ed wants a TT position.

[zharkov]

Here's an exercise:  Ask Capella to provide you with a list of their doctorate-holders who have a tenure-track position at a respectable four-year college or university.  I'm more than williing to be that this list can be contained on a single page, particularly if you exclude faculty in business, education, and IT.  That's really the text for the question that started this thread, and it would provide the answer.

Capella's doctorates are in business, tech, education, human services, and psych.  (I'm not involved with the school, but your exclusion struck me funny, so I looked it up.)

I think there is a lot to be said for online education, and non traditional education in general. But, if you want to learn gene splicing and go on to work in an R1, then go to a traditional/residential PhD program.

I think we need to compare apples to apples.  A Capella doctorate in business isn't a Harvard doctorate in business, but my take is that it would be comparable to East West State University and that ilk.

[dale1]

Doesn't this recent discussion bring up the point of the needles proliferation of PhD programs, and the bodies that are supposed to be watching this stuff?

If my university suddenly wanted to offer a PhD in Forensic Science, we could probably do that, but why add a PhD in English or Political Science or History, when there are plenty of providers out there?  I'm not sure we need another dubious Education PhD or Psychology PhD when there are plenty of these to go around.

I think these programs may even de-value traditional programs.

[whitenortherner]

This is a perfect example of how "snooty" higher education has become.  "Oh my degree at a non-online degree program is better than yours."  "I must be the gatekeeper and keep everyone out."  A similar case can be said about the white, male, heterosexual, Christian privilege in our country as well.

[zharkov]

Doesn't this recent discussion bring up the point of the needles proliferation of PhD programs, and the bodies that are supposed to be watching this stuff?

If my university suddenly wanted to offer a PhD in Forensic Science, we could probably do that, but why add a PhD in English or Political Science or History, when there are plenty of providers out there?  I'm not sure we need another dubious Education PhD or Psychology PhD when there are plenty of these to go around.

I think these programs may even de-value traditional programs.

Good point and I think it depends on which state you are in. Some states limit new programs to cases where a need is show for that new program. Or that state's higher ed commission may even ask schools to consider adding a new program when there seems to be a need in that state (which recently happened with a school I work with).

Just to be clear, I'm referring to those states with a higher ed commission that oversees both private and public programs.  To use Dale's example, if my private school wanted to offer a PhD in history, say, the state would be unlikely to OK that.

To hazard a guess, Capella gets to offer its doctorates by pointing to the national market for PhDs, so get's its state's OK.  I'm only familiar with business, and I would say that there is indeed a need for more business PhDs. (Or at least there is not an oversupply as in history, say.)

[aandsdean]

OK, to be fair I decided to do some research.  I googled the phrase "Ph.D., Capella University" (in quotation marks to get the whole phrase), which returns 5 or 6 pp. or results.  It's pretty instructive, actually.  The people listed here (almost all of whom are affiliated with colleges and universities) are primarily faculty, not surprisingly, in the fields Capella provides.  Many of them are faculty, again not surprisingly, at other online schools, most notably Touro International University, which by my count includes at least 10 faculty in business and 2 in Health Sciences with doctorates from Capella.

The majority of faculty at bricks-and-mortar colleges and universities fall into three categories:

• Faculty at 2-year colleges (again, no surprise, since the doctorate isn't required for most of these positions, but would usually yield an increase in salary)
• Sectarian schools, including Trevecca Nazarene University, California Baptist University, and some others
• Schools in Capella's home state of Minnesota, including St. Scholatica, St. Catherine, Augsburg, and Bethel (which would also count as a sectarian institution)

There are some interesting outliers--NC Central University (criminal justice), Kennesaw State (Georgia, didn't get the discipline), and Dakota State University (in computer information systems), which I suppose could almost count as a Minnesota school, though I know how much Dakotans hate that, but just for the sake of argument.

Some of these schools are pretty good--St. Kate's, for example, which I know quite well, is very strong in a number of fields--but note that there isn't a single national name in the group.  I think this is an important datum.

Greatnortherner, higher education has always been snooty.  In fact, it used to be a great deal snootier than it is now.  There are diverse institutions to serve diverse needs, and Capella certainly serves these needs.  It's clear enough that they have some success in job placement, though I'd be willing to be that at least half this list earned their doctorates while they already had the job they currently occupy (this too isn't surprising--I have faculty in several disciplines here where it's hard to find people with doctorates who are working on them in situ).

And I'm sorry to say, but until proved otherwise, pretty much everyone in higher education is going to assume that a Ph.D. from a bricks-and-mortar school (let's just say the University of Iowa, though that's not where my doctorate is from) is better than one from Capella.  People in higher education serve gatekeeper functions all the time, from admissions to grading to letters of recommendation to graduate admission to hiring decisions. That's how it works.  For the same reason that people will generally assume that a doctorate from Yale is better than one from Western Michigan (except, probably, in creative writing), they will assume that a doctorate from a good bricks-and-mortar university (even if it's a "bricks-and-clicks" degree) is better than one from Capella.

One other factor that I haven't even gotten into is Capella's, and Phoenix's, and other online universities', status as for-profit institutions, which I think seriously challenges their credibilty, but that's another issue for another day.   

Finally, the OP asked about how a Capella degree would be viewed at a 4-year institution.  I've told him and others have agreed, including case_insensitive.  The only senior administrative areas where a Capella doctorate would likely be a positive at all would be student affairs and business and finance, maybe financial aid, and in those cases would likely be a tool for advancement for someone already in place.  I profoundly doubt that it's the pathway into academic affairs.  I also didn't really assume that the OP was thinking about only faculty positions, though of course faculty positions are the primary pathway into senior administration in academic affairs, which is obviously enough the position I'm coming from.

This is actually a very interesting discussion to me--I'm glad it's summer and things are semi-slow in the office so I have some time to look into the issue.  We have been talking about further online initiatives, and I've gotten to do some research that has clarified my assumptions, though it hasn't done much to enhance my opinion of for-profit online schools.