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[anon]

Hi All,

Could anyone explain what a "bad" letter of recommendation looks like?

What does one say that might make it "bad" or "negative"?

Can I ask my referees to give me copies? Can I ask places that I applied to to give me a copy of the letters they received?

anon

[mathematician]

> Could anyone explain what a "bad" letter of recommendation
> looks like?
>
> What does one say that might make it "bad" or "negative"?

Usually is not what it says, it's what it does not say. Rarely, if ever, a letter will contain negative statements, usually it damns you by faint praise. Or it might not contain anything that suggest the writer is actually familiar with your work. Letters saying "I met him at a conference, he seems competent" will not do anything for you, and might in fact harm you. "I have read his thesis, and it seems ok" is much worse, because it says that the writer is familiar with your work, and does think much of it.

Anything that might suggest that the writer has reservations on the candidate is also deadly. A friend of mine used to joke that the sentence "Although I cannot guarantee that *** will ever win a Nobel Prize, . . . " in a very positive and enthusiastic letter will prevent an applicant with a great CV from getting any offers.

> Can I ask my referees to give me copies?

Absolutely not.

> Can I ask places that
> I applied to to give me a copy of the letters they received?

This may be your right, but I would advise against doing it.

[Mel]

A bad letter is one that doesn't enthusiastically support you, preferably with specific details about why you're great.

A bad letter could ALSO be a letter that gushes on and on about your talents in research, if you're applying to a teaching-focused school, or vice versa.

Your referees might or might not be willing to give you copies.  There have been numerous discussions on whether or not you should ask them, and it may be institution- and field-dependent.

You should DEFINITELY not ask the places you applied to for copies of the letters.  That's bizarre at best, could be a major turn-off for the search committee, and isn't likely to actually work, either.

I think the general consensus around here is that you shouldn't ask for a letter from someone who you're not sure will write a good letter.  This also means you shouldn't badger someone who is reluctant to write for you into doing so.

[A. Random Physicist]

One of the worst things I ever saw in a letter was the closing line (paraphrased): "If you hired him, Dr. X would probably be a productive member of your department." Probably!

I also want to emphasize something Mel said. If you're applying at a teaching oriented school, a letter from Dr. Bigshot talking about what a fantastic research career you have ahead of you won't help, it will hurt.

[Puddy Katz]

really don't want to go. Have your letters sent there, then ask the place to forward them to you.

Problem solved!

[Done it...]

Hi there,

You can read your letters if you have them in a dossier service.  You don't need to send them to a school and then have them forward the letters to you (and thus abolish all chances at that school).  Have them sent to a friend at another school or program.  Voila.

By the way, I totally don't think it's ethical.  But I think it's smart.  I avoided a total fiasco this way.

[Doug E Fresh]

I have read thousands of recommendation letters.  I recall one for a student applying to a Ph.D. program in Musicology.  The letter said:

“I know John.  He’s very musical.  Good luck to him”

The student was not admitted.

[Unethical]

I'm in agreement with "Done it..."  While it's not technically "ethical," the way to get around the problem is to either have the letters sent to a friend at a school or to have the office give them to you in a "sealed and signed" envelope with the idea that you have a school you need to send them to yourself.

It seems pretty obvious that you shouldn't request letters from those you're not sure will write good ones, but there's a lot of middle ground here.  When I was applying to grad school, I had an extra set of letters and "unethically" opened them... one was glowing but all of a paragraph long; another raved about how I was the best of all the students in his "remedial" class (this was a class I took in my Freshman year and was now applying to programs in this discipline!).  Needless to say, I had enough time to get another couple of letters and got into grad school.  Another important element here is that when applying for jobs, you can usually only send three of six (or so) recs; knowing what recommenders refer to in the letters can really help you to cater which you send to which school.

So, I put "unethical" in quotes primarily because while I think that lying and scheming is quite unethical, it's a complicated issue.  Most of these "questionable" letters of rec. have absolutely nothing to do with us and mostly to do with the effort and thoughtfulness of the recommender (I had one recommendation, once, from my "teaching mentor" with all kinds of grammatical mistakes in it!) -- after 10 years in grad school and debt of all kind, these letters are just too important to go out sight unseen.

P.S.  I know most say that grammar mistakes and such in letters reflect poorly on the writer and not candidate, there's not much of a difference here... The value of the letter declines immensely if the writer can't write (particularly if this is a letter from an English professort).

[IndianaProf]

How about this?:

"Although Ms. X tries hard, I would not be able to put her in the upper 50% of students I have supervised."

I nearly fell out of my chair--you rarely see that sort of directness! It was pretty obvious from the rest of the record that Ms. X was indeed not a blue-chipper. The other references were the damn-with-faint-praise type.

No, we didn't interview her.

[just say no]

Whoah, some of these examples are BRUTAL.  

Why wouldn't these recommenders politely decline to write letters in these situations?  It seems infinitely kinder.

[comfortable]

OP, I think finding ways to read your letters upfront is legit, but do not ask the institutions where you have applied to. I believe that most people who will write good letters for you would be ok to show you the letter upfront. But if this is the case you probably won't need it anyway, as you will already know it is good.

I believe the key to make sure you have a good letter of rec. is to ask the person upfront "if they are comfortable writing you a very good letter of recom., with no reservations." If the answer is yes, you probbaly do not have to worry about it any further.

[.]

Because the kiddies throw a hissy fit and then claim you are biased against them.

[what?]

When I was on the market, my department had a placement director, who looked at your confidential letters for you.  If any of them had problems, the placement director took it up with the author.  If the problems couldn't be resolved, then the director would suggest you find another letter writer.  It's a very simple process.  Why on earth are there graduate programs that don't even do such minor things for their students?  Who goes to such awful terrible schools?  Seriously.

[anon]

I would kiss te ground of the honost professor  who would tell me (directly) that he or she can't write a letter for me, not just because of ethics.  

A while ago I wrote a letter for one of my students out of pity, and because none else would write it for her. She truly exemplified a lousy student.  I really really thought there was no way she would get into the program, because of her grades.

Guess what? She was admitted on full-schioarship!! Another high profile professor who didn't even know her well, decided to write a letter for her, purely based on hte fact that I did it, she she must be special.  I still kick myself till today, because I really believe she robbed someone else of the oppurtunity.  

JUST SAY NO!

[Dept Chair]

I've written lots of recommendation letters and I always give a copy to the person, regardless of whether they have agreed to confidentiality.  If I cannot write something that I would let the person read, I simply would not write the letter.  Let the little nippers squawk all they want to about bias.  When I sign a letter of recommendation, my reputation is on the line.

[%sig%]