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[Koko]

What did people think of today's Chronicle article?

[Sharon]

I think they missed the point: within the profession, not getting a t-t does equal failure. All professions operate with a clear understanding of what constitutes success and what constitutes failure.
One might be a success without a t-t, but that is not success within the profession's standards.
I think they would have been more inspiring if they had focused on teaching mentally-weak students how to develop a very thick skin.
Remember Freud: the price for collective happiness is individual unhappiness.

[llort]

In my policy related social science field success can also mean getting a  job at a government agency or even in business (gasp). I tell prospective students about our  students in government positions as well as academic ones. Success would mean that you are doing waht you want. If you never wanted to use the degree and that is why you aren't pursuing a job that needs a research degree then that is fine too.  Our students coming in ofen say they don't want academic jobs.

[Sideroad Bob]

On Sharon's view:

To disagree, I think the article hit to point squarely on the head (although we may disagree on the nature of the target...).  The notion of failure has, of course, everything to do with the expected outcomes of any endeavour.  This in turn leads us onto the long-debated issue of the aims of any doctoral programme: do PhD programmes exist simply and exclusively to churn out new academics (in the professional sense), or are there wider, less career-oriented goals in mind?   Here in the UK, at least, there is a strong impression that not everyone entering a doctoral programme is seeking an academic post at the end of it - there are many other reasons for spending 3 to 4 years in engaged independent study.  The skills gained, and abilities demonstrated, during the process of researching and writing the dissertation are becoming increasingly recognised by employers within both the public and private sector, and many of my contemporaries have gone on to exciting and (in some cases) high powered positions outside the academy.   Given the nature of the academic job market (especially here in the UK), this is no bad thing.  This dissemination of PhDs throughout wider society is, of course, what is known as a very good thing, especially when some of these folk end up in government posts (especially those who control funding for higher education) - and i could go on about the general benefit of an educated populace, but the coffee smells just about perfect...

[Sympathizing]

I think the "profession" and the degree are quite separate.  Within the professorial ranks of the academic profession, not achieving tenure may rightly be regarded as a professional failure.  However, not every PhD hopes to enter those ranks and their education (in policy studies, for example) may be quite appropriate to a non-academic position.  A given student's choice to enter a non-academic career cannot be regarded as a failed academic career.  That would be nonsense.  

Of course, some - but not nearly all - students enter non-academic positions because they failed on the job market.

[Puzzled]

Personally I did recognize myself in the article. Getting a TT position was my goal. Although I do understand that success is not only related on gettting a TT position, any other careers can bring happiness and success. But in my case the several unsuccesful searches brought a deep sentiment of failure. AN d now I am at a point I feel so low of myself that I have no confidence for any jobs from the tt position to anything else insid eor outside academia.

[Anon]

Something that is missing from this discussion is that professors are often judged by where their students end up. If a prof has students going off to top t-t positions, it looks good. If they have no students going off to t-t positions, it looks bad. This isn't completely arbitrary. Many of the students who didn't get t-t jobs tried to and didn't make it. So not only do we need to change the perception of where it's okay to get a job, but also how we judge profs. My advisor really really wanted me to go to a top t-t job, and I know that part of that was because it looked good for him.

[squidward]

I am rather in line with sympathizing's post, as I think Sharon is way off the mark.  I suspect Sharon is of the privileged class who does have a tenure-track job (or maybe already has tenure), and thus gets to hold onto these elitist attitudes (either she's being facetious, or she should think twice about characterizing PhDs and grad students as "mentally weak").

Graduate students are not "in the profession" - they are students and "the profession" is that of tenure-track academics.  Recent PhDs seeking t-t jobs are likewise on the outside.   Measures of success are appropriate to those within a given context - publication, recognition, tenure are the measures of success of people with the "ideal" job, finishing the PhD is the major measure of success for grad students.

I think the article was excellent and these ideas need wider exposure.  Until the severe supply/demand problem of PhDs and t-t positions is resolved, this will continue to be a major problem.  Not to mention that it is those academics already in the tenure-track or tenured jobs at the Research Universities (the promised land) who are taking in too many grad students and producing too many PhDs, only to let them a great percentage of them flounder when they are finished (or quit in dejection beforehand), failing to get a job or suffering underemployment for years in the hopes of getting admitted to the club.  To add to the psychological trauma by espousing the ideal is a tenure-track Research U job and that all else is failure is just plain wrong.  You'd think that academics would know better.

[milou]

Sharon has been harsh on other occasions. She has a particular attitude towards academia that I do not share. My own feeling is that we get Ph.Ds partly because we want a teaching job (not all Ph.Ds even want that) and partly because we really love intellectual inquiry. From my standpoint getting a Ph.D. is already a success. My brother has a Ph.D. but chose to re-train in another field because his academic area has a very difficult job market and he does not want to have 1 year jobs for several years and move around the country without stable friendships. He has a great job now and I consider him a success. He ended up turning down a visiting professorship at a prestigious institution because it was a one-year position with no possibility of renewal. That made sense to me and I think he is very successful. If I don't get a job this hiring cycle I may make the same decision, because I really like where I am living and I love my friends a lot, and I am VERY tired of adjuncting. I will not necessarily consider myself a failure if I do this, although 3 years ago I would have. My priorities have changed. We have to decide what is most important to us, and make our lives around that.



                                                     Milou

[dark globe]

I agree with milou. I got a PhD for my own personal satisfaction I have a good job, and have found that I don't wish to be associated with most academics, who for the most part are soulless creatures who believe they are doing something really important.

As for Sharon, she's probably right concerning the profession. But I think what most people miss is that judging one's success by the expectations and judgements of others is pointless.

She also further confirms my low opinion of academics as human beings.

[anon]

If you attempt to get a tt job, and you do not, you have failed in your goal. Why try to sugar coat the issue?  The fact that most participants are set up for failure is another subject altogether.

[To Anon]

anon wrote:

> If you attempt to get a tt job, and you do not, you have
> failed in your goal. Why try to sugar coat the issue?  The fact
> that most participants are set up for failure is another
> subject altogether.

The point is if you fail in a particular persuit, that does not make you a FAILURE.

[Anon V]

Believe it or not, I was offered a tenure track job last year and decided not to accept it - I did not want to live there. Although I love the material, I know that research is not for me. I will probably be leaving academe soon due to my own choice - so I can live in the part of the country I select. There are other jobs available - and why confine yourself to one possible career?

In regards to Sharon's opinion - 95% of her posts have been - very little thought. I doubt she would get tenure  (read a lot of them, she has problems with - either alcohol or not inhibiting her neurons from writing whatever idea enters her head). If she does, God help us all, and further evidence of - a PhD or a tenure track job does not equal success.

I actually suspect that she is not even a faculty member - high school student or college student trying to push buttons? And cite the one name she is aware of to look like a psychologist? Freud whoop de do.

[Sympathizing]

anon wrote:

> If you attempt to get a tt job, and you do not, you have
> failed in your goal. Why try to sugar coat the issue?  The fact
> that most participants are set up for failure is another
> subject altogether.

Ahhh, anon, you are trying to truncate the conversation.  This conversation was not solely about people who try to get TT jobs and fail.  Rather, it included people who never intended to follow the academic career path after receiving the PhD.  Those certainly could not be described as having failed in their endeavors if they do not come up with a job they never wanted.