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[newbie]

a while back, someone wrote,

The best strategy for students who are trying but headed towards failing is to get them to drop. Often there isn't enough of a time window to do so.

Let me add my twist to this. Where I teach (outside of the US, btw), most of us have a "If you are absent X or more times, you will get an F." policy cleared stated on the syllabus. I don't want to start a debate on taking vs. not taking attendance. Where I teach, attendance is fairly important, and in my classes, it is EXTREMELY important.

This is my situation -- last semester, I had a student with poor attendance. About 2/3 way through the semester, when she was one short of X absences, I talked to her privately and told her. Her attendance did improve, but in the end, she got more than X absences.

Everyday when she came to class, part of me was thinking to myself, you know you're going to get an F anyway ... One colleague said to me, why are you stressing out over this, obviously the student doesn't care.

Her work was not stellar by any means, mediocre essays, poor presentation, failed pop quizzes, etc.

I guess, my question is this -- AFTER the drop period, have you ever outright told a student, as kindly as possible of course, "you're getting an F, you don't have to come to class anymore"?

[%sig%]

[Untenured]

A good question, newbie.  No, I haven't.  Even if the student is performing abysmally, I usually offer some way to pass the course if they come and ask.  There is something about telling them that just seems too direct.  It invites heated confrontation face-to-face, which makes me uncomfortable.  If, however, you have established just such an attendance policy then by all means you could inform the student if this fact.

I had one student who had an average so low that she could only obtain a 97 on the final exam to pass the course.  I told her this ahead of time.  I graded the first question on the exam, she got it wrong, her grade dropped below a 97, and I put the exam down.  Easiest test to grade ever.

Untenured

[Jennifer]

Four weeks before the end of last semester, a student in my class who had been absent already for two weeks (we only met once a week, so missing a class meant missing a lot of material) wrote me a frantic email saying her boss put her on mandatory overtime and she would not be able to attend class anymore. She begged me to help her, and she kept asking if there was any way she could get a C. The woman had around a 47% average at that point, and I looked at her poor attendance, not turning in assignments or taking advantage of extra credit, and even missing a test without explanation, and decided that she did not really deserve any special effort from me to help her pass. I debated about this for awhile, and I even asked my Dean, who agreed with me. I felt badly, but even if she was there and handed everything in for the rest of the semester and did reasonably well on the next test and final, it would certainly not bring her up to a C. I just felt that it was a lost cause, and I did feel guilty, but at the same time, she had not been putting in the effort she was supposed to. This was a hybrid class, so there was an online component that was 10% of the grade, and she'd never even logged in at that point! That would bring her down one whole letter grade right there. I emailed her finally to tell her my decision, emphasizing that I felt she had not mastered enough of the material in the course to move to the next course. Although I had other reasons for not wanting to accomodate her, this was the main one; in math, since it is so sequential, if she went to the next class, she'd surely fail. I was aware enough of her skills, or lack of skills rather, and I strongly believed I would be doing her a huge disservice by passing her, no matter how much she wanted me to.

[rattus domesticus]

newbie wrote:
> I guess, my question is this -- AFTER the drop period, have
> you ever outright told a student, as kindly as possible of
> course, "you're getting an F, you don't have to come to class
> anymore"?

Well, newbie, I like your syllabus and your forthrightness. I think you are absolutely on the right track. Although I haven't said exactly "don't come to class anymore," I have caught a student outside (or asked them outside the class) and said, "I'm surprised to see you here." When they ask, "What do you mean?"  I said, "You weren't here for the midterm. You can't pass the course unless you're here for the midterm. And you've missed six classes--which means that you won't pass the class." When they argue, I simply point to the spot in my syllabus and reread my policy. If they react, I tell them that they are welcome to talk to my supervisor (department chair) and that's that. I've had to do this about four times in six years of teaching. It's disturbing that some students will foul up so badly--and a bummer that they somehow try to make it our problem, but it's a reality. If they have documented excuses (the four that I allow: death of immediate family member, doctor's appointment for them or person they are guardian of; athletics [documented] or original jury duty notice in their name), I do allow them to make up work and consider it an "excused" absence. All the rest? Not excused. I actually list these four things on my syllabus--keeps me out of the wrangling and into teaching. Good luck!

[%sig%]

[prytania]

I was never very good at keeping attendance--maybe because I taught in  public schools for 4 years and had to be so exacting about it.

Still, my bottom line is similar to Jennifer's--I decide if the student would be able to succeed in the next level. If I feel confident they could, and some students come aain at a high level to begin with, I slap on a C and let it go. If not--well, then an F it is.

[anon]

i don't keep attendance, but i know who is there for my summer courses.  i frequently have this sort of problem in which  a student shows up in the third week... out of 6 weeks total with some excuse like 'i was on vacation'.  i just say, 'there is no way for you to succeed in this course above x grade because you have missed 2 weeks of course.'  this year though, i just put it in the syllabus, if you miss any assignment, without an excuse that is accepted at this university, you fail.

[Nevahh!]

I have had a student assured an F with 3-4 weeks remaining.  But since my object isn't per se to get her a passing grade, but to teach her, it seemed worthwhile from MY perspective for her to keep attending class, even if passing was no longer in the cards.  I think she actually learned something in those last few weeks, even though she did get the F she earned.

[Ms. Collegiality]

I think part of the problem is that so many of these students have been passed for minimal and/or shoddy work in other classes.  I warn students that if they don't meet the requirements of the syllabus they will get an F, and they practically wink at me.

Now I mention on average how many A's and how many F's I hand out per semester on the first day of class, in order to bring it home that I am not like previous teachers they may have had.  Sad to say, the number of F's last term was at an all time high--ten out of four classes.

I still had to confront an angry mom whose sixteen-year-old son barely attended one of my classes, barely turned in any work, and then told his mom he couldn't imagine why he failed.  I actually had to come in last week on a day off, sit down with her and a counselor, and show her the gradebook, with the absences clearly marked and the zeroes where no assignments were turned in.  The clincher:  she said, "But what do you expect?  He's a sixteen-year-old boy!"  Like I was supposed to say, "Oh!  Well, then, let's just change that grade to a C."

I wish I could be one of those unethical profs who want so much to be liked and popular that they hand out easy grades and don't look closely at papers, but alas, I'm a hard-ass; I am now able to sit with a student who is sobbing over a grade and pat her on the shoulder and say, "There, there, you'll do better next term."  On the other hand, I think my expectations are reasonable; I've given 15 A's in a comp class with 22 students before--if they do the work, I don't have to prove anything with a bell curve.  I Like having the reputation of "tough but fair"--with an occasional protesting student saying "she's not tough at all."

[Nona]

A few years ago a student challenged the "after 3 absences, you receive an F " policy at the institution where I work, and won.  From that point on, professors were instructed by the administration not to write anything like that in the syllabus.  However, we can place a huge percentage of a grade in participation.  So, if the student is not in class, their grade reflects it.

[Tea Athrawes]

To Nona

That is how it is at my CC.  Grades tied to attendance are not allowed.  I have found the participation factor to be a bit of a slippery slope however.  In my performance classes it is obvious, but in the lecture classes not so much.  I wonder how that would be handled in a lawsuit?

I find myself using particpation to benefit students who have been there everyday, are working hard, but may not test well or write well.  These students end up with a B- or an A- or a C+, I look at attendance and see they have been to every class so I will put them over the top, then that C+ turns into a B-, etc.  Actually since I only have 24 to 28 students I usually have a really good sense of each student by the time final grades are being tabulated.

I just don't feel great about using "participation" to down grade a student.  It feels petty. Kind of like, "well you couldn't come to my class so I am going to zinger you! Ha ha ha!" Just me probably. Non attendance effects their grades in a pretty quantifiable way however. In my lecture course it is a one day a week 3hour (4hours in the summer) course and if they are not there they do not get to "make up" the assignment given or the in class work done.  Ultimately their test scores usually reflect tehir atendance.  

This summer I am trying something new - a quiz (multiple choice) every 2 units - which means the 3rd week and the 5th week, with a similar multiple choice test as part of the comprehensive final the 7th week.  I think that might just force the attendance issue, but I now wonder if I will be in that position of "hey your failing, get out not."

[Fiona]

Re attendance and participation:

You can take attendance by passing around a signup sheet. I sometimes have a question for them to answer next to their names on the signup sheet--a Yes or No question related to the reading.

You can get participation in a lecture class by having students write out a 3 x 5 card to bring to class with their thoughts on the assignment for the day.

If the students aren't signed up, and you don't have a dated card for that day, they weren't there and they didn't participate.

If your syllabus says a student will get an F for not doing the work, give the student an F. Otherwise you're not only not preparing them for future life, you're lying to them.

[%sig%]

[prytania]

Just because they're failing is no reason to kick them out of the class. They still have the right to be there--they did pay the money to attend if not to pass.

Many times college officials say attendance policies are illegal. That's not exactly true but the attendance policy has to be necessary in terms of the curriculum, or something like that. An obvious case would be nursing students or student teachers who do a practicum.

I know at my CC-- a lot of teachers love, love those attendance policies and have started using them in the syllabus after many talks with the CC attorney. Personally, I don't get this adoration with attendance policies. I have found, and I teach English, mind you, that 95% of the students who have poor attendance fail on their very own accord, and I'm not at all a teacher who is known for time-on-task. I'll run with any good tangent; nevertheless, 95% of the students who don't attend regularly are not up to the minimum standard by the end of the semester. The other 5% who don't attend regularly are often very good when they walk in the door and should have Clepped the class anyway. So why should I fail them?

As for participation, that can be very quantifiable, and I do give participation grades on certain pertinent in-class activities.
But why do people fuss over attendance? If they can pass your class without coming--well, then, that's a problem. If they can't--it's not an issue.

[newbie]

"Just because they're failing is no reason to kick them out of the class. They still have the right to be there--they did pay the money to attend if not to pass."

I would NOT tell a student, you CAN'T come to class since you're getting an F. Rather, I was asking about, you don't HAVE TO come to class since you're getting an F.

Whether it's b/c of attendance or a failed midterm or whatever, if you find a student that needs, say, 110 on the final exam to pass (= mathematically impossible to pass), would you tell that student? Do you assume that the student realizes his/her predicament?

[%sig%]

[anon47]

"Do you assume that the student realizes his/her predicament?"

No-- I assume the student figures there's a curve or that he or she can whine her way up to passing.

Or just doesn't have a clue.

I was sitting outside my mom's (academic coordinator) office once and heard a student saying incredulously, "You mean I actually have to PASS 101 to take 102?  I went to almost half the classes!"

[prytania]

It's a good idea to let students know when they are failing.

One thing has always been an enormous curiousity to me, though.

Before I taught at a CC, I taught high school, and those high school kids always knew exactly what their grades were--in fact, they seemed to know what everyone's grades were--and I'm talking numeric.

Then they get to college and somehow get stupid. They turn in little work and get F's on what they do turn in--and they're oh-so-surprised to find out they're failing.