Where Are All the Women?
Friday, December 3, at 1 p.m., U.S. Eastern time
Nancy Hopkins, a professor of biology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, first complained that gender bias had derailed her career more than a decade ago. She and several female faculty members at MIT issued a report in the late 1990s that detailed how they believed the university had discriminated against them, giving them smaller laboratories -- and salaries -- than their male colleagues.
To the women's surprise, MIT admitted that it was guilty of discrimination and made amends by giving many women -- including Ms. Hopkins -- more money and lab space. Since then, Ms. Hopkins has become a national spokeswoman on the problems facing female faculty members at major research institutions. In particular, she was instrumental in persuading leaders of several major universities to take a hard look at their own hiring practices and to come up with ways to recruit more women. That effort continues.
Meanwhile, Ms. Hopkins's research -- on the identification of genes essential for early development in zebra fish -- has taken off, and she has been named to the National Academy of Sciences' Institute of Medicine. And yet within her department, and at other major research universities, she believes "there is still tremendous discrimination left." That is, in part, what keeps young women today from applying for faculty positions at the nation's top institutions, she says, and why those universities have been so slow to hire women even as American women now earn a majority of Ph.D.'s conferred in the United States.
What should research universities do to be more attractive to women in the professoriate? Is it possible to attain a gender balance in the faculty ranks of the most-prestigious institutions? And what kind of advice should be given to young female scientists, in particular, who are trying to make their way in academe?
» Where the Elite Teach, It's Still a Man's World (12/3/2004)
Nancy Hopkins holds an endowed chair in biology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. She has helped persuade leaders of major research universities -- including her own -- to think about ways to recruit more female faculty members.
Piper Fogg (Moderator):
I am Piper Fogg, a reporter who worked with Robin Wilson on the package on women in academe. Today, I'm happy to welcome our guest, MIT's Nancy Hopkins, who will be answering your questions about gender equity and what colleges are doing to address the issue. But before we begin, I'd like to invite readers to participate in a separate but related (and spirited) discussion on the subject at http://chronicle.com/colloquy/
OK, now to your questions for Professor Hopkins.
Question from Helen McBride, Postdoc, California Institute of Technology:
How do we convince faculty and administrators that promoting diversity, particularly gender parity, is in their best interest?
Nancy Hopkins:
I think most people can grasp the fact that when you make the pool of applicants bigger, there is more talent available. We are in the business of hunting for talent. Bigger - hence inevitably more diverse - applicant pools provide more talent. Also, any administrator who ignores the fact that a woman won the Nobel Prize in Medicine this year does so at his/her peril! And there are more potential female winners waiting in the wings. We will see more and more women winning the Nobel prize. What university can afford to be left behind?
Question from Carol M. Bresnahan, University of Toledo:
Dear Prof. Hopkins,
Last year, as an American Academy on Education Fellow at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, I worked with a group of women in the faculty and administration to devise a mentoring program for all faculty, especially women, at UIUC. We did a lot of research and consulted some leaders on the mentoring of women, especially in the sciences. But the one area where we found little guidance (none, actually), was in helping women in all disciplines find reliable mentors in their quest to gain promotion from tenured associate professor to (full) professor. Since no one can be fully credible with her or his peers unless he or she receives such promotion, the failure of women to become professors will continue to hinder their academic stature.
Can you tell me what, in your experience at MIT or in your observations and research, the academy can do not only to hire and tenure women, but to be sure they gain full academic credentials and stature by achieving professorships?
Thanks so much for your answer, and for your leadership on the questions and issues facing women in the academy.
Nancy Hopkins:
This is a very interesting question, and it has also come up here at MIT. My guess is that mentoring for members of a majority group tends to happen naturally. But when you have minority groups - as women faculty have been, or as under-represented minotiries are, then you need more formal systems in place. We have discussed - and taken some steps to set up - a system that monitors faculty porgress after tenure. For exactly the reason you point out. Are men and women progressing to full professorships at the same rate? Are they doing equally well as they move along? If not, why not? Data gathering AND monitoring is important. Then you can take steps to try to correct any problem you find.
Question from Terrell, small university:
Is there a direct correlation with the slow hiring between gender and race? Will focusing on either gender or race bring more attention to hiring diverse faculty or rather allow institutions to choose, if only one area, and focus on it while allowing the other to remain the same?
Nancy Hopkins:
Great question! I wish I knew the answer. We do know that many of the procedures we establish for one group do help the other and indeed help all faculty. For example, family friendly policies help all faculty; Equity reviews of salary and resource distribution help all faculty. But I still do not think that answers your question completely. My guess is that the answer is yes - that it often does help - but I am not sure that is true, or at least always true. I sure hope so though.
Question from Lisa, state college prof.:
Do you think some of the bias against women comes from the fact that many women place heavy emphasis on teaching and campus service? While in two year and four year colleges such an attitude is rewarded, it still seems to be the fact that at research universities a passion or special talent for teaching can be devastating to one's career. (I actually changed fields during my undergraduate work at a research university when my female advisor was let go the year after winning the university-wide teaching prize.)
Nancy Hopkins:
I think perhaps that is part of a stereotype that may be applied to women. However, I do not think it is the main cause of the bias. Even women who show little interest or ability in teaching and service experience bias.
Question from Marina Brozovich, Caltech:
Hello Dr. Hopkins,
Is the discrepancy in hiring between women and men in academia due to the fact that the universities tend to look for a particular
personality type to fill a new tenure track professor position?
This (let's call it) "type A" personality is usually connected to male candidates. Since women rarely fit to this profile, their career is seriously affected.
This also implies that males who do not fit the "prototype personality" profile would also be at a disadvantage.
If academic hiring would be open to a wider variety of personalities, a more diverse and healthier work environment might be created.
I would greatly appreciate your insight in this gender vs. personality agenda.
Best regards,
Marina
Nancy Hopkins:
There is evidence that what you say is indeed part of the explanation for why fewer women are hired. Research indicates that unconscious bias of this type really can affect the decision. (However, we believe there are other reasons that also contribute to the small numbers of women faculty, particularly in the sciences.)
Question from Gari-Anne, a West Coast theological seminary:
In the mistaken belief that advertising for people to do women's studies in various disciplines in the humanities and social sciences will attract women scholars and create gender balance in their departments, institutions put an added burden on women who need positions but whose research interests do not necessarily concern women. The women who accept these positions are often forced to interrupt their own research to prepare to teach on women's issues. Allowing women to pursue their academic interests, and only their academic interests, would make many women more productive and, consequently, more prepared when tenure time comes. (This is the main reason that I have not even pursued a PhD in my area and prefer merely to do research and write.)It would help if more institutions saw women as scholars or teachers first and women second.
Nancy Hopkins:
I couldn't agree more! You must do the research you love - or what's the point?? I was not aware of the problem you name. I have not heard of this before.
Question from Carolyn Heising, Professor of Industrial Engineering, Iowas State University:
I was the first woman professor of nuclear engineering at MIT, (1980-84), and have since taught at three other engineering colleges; I am a full professor of industrial engineering now at Iowa State University. When I was at MIT in the early 80s, there was much talk about advancing women faculty in engineering. At the three institutions I have been at since MIT, the same kind of talk about diversity occurs but with very little progress. What can be done to promote action over talk?
Nancy Hopkins:
How nice to hear from you! I think I understand much better now why progress is so slow. This takes a LOT of work. Furthermore, it requires that women who understand the issue and admisntirators with the power to fix it work together - over quite a long time. Such ideal circumstances are not easy to achieve and even when they are achieved, they seldom last long enough to sustain progress. At MIT I believe we have had these ideal circumstances in recent years and the progress has been substantial in some areas. But I still worry when I see how much work it takes and for how long. Thus, I now favor more intervention and enforcement from outside the institutions.
Question from Lilia Kakaradova, University of Maine in Fort Kent:
Why are women and especialy "women of color" underpresented in Computer Science and Engeneering Departments and if they are hired by a lucky accident why are the women payed less than the male faculty for doing the same job?
Nancy Hopkins:
I believe the answer to your question is not simple - rather there are multiple reasons. I suspect there are some we (I for sure) do not know. However, among the explanations of why so few: fewer in the pipeline to begin with, possibly because the teaching of the subject is not attractive to women students in some cases; failure to seek an academic job in this field for a variety of reasons including a) perhaps not being encourgaed to do so, b) perhaps having had no female role models, c) perhaps not seeing a happy life in that profession for a variety of reasons. As for being paid less for the same work - that is simple. That is called discrimination! It can happen unconsciously. It can also happen because when there are so few women, the ones who are there are often marginalized and do not know how the system works. As a result they can get left out and left beind.
Question from Mary O'Riordan, University of Michigan Medical School:
One of the problems of gender equity is that women often have young children during critical career stages, e.g., prior to tenure. Science functions on sweat equity but working moms (and some dads) have a hard time working more than 60-70/week in the lab. Thus, people without families will always be able to put in more hours. How can this be addressed?
Nancy Hopkins:
This is one of the questions we discuss endlessly. And I find that women disagree about the answers to some extent. I personally think that people who work more will accomplish more (and should be rewarded accordingly). These are personal choices to some extent. I see a tendency now to look down on workaholics, but I do not share this. Long live these dedicated individuals I say! Not everyone can - or wants to - have everything at the same time all the time.
However, I also think that to expect women to do MORE for the family and yet do the SAME at work is grossly unfair. So how do we make things fair? I think society needs to keep moving in a direction where both men and women will have equal choices about these matters. Where there will not be bias against men who choose to be family-first, or women who chooose to be work-first. And where more people feel an equal responsiblity to care for the family - both in terms of time spent and financially.
Question from Rena Lolar, University of Maine at Orono:
There are arguments being made regarding Title IX and how feminists are using Title IX to gain "preferential" treatment within academia. How would you address these anti-feminist notions?
Nancy Hopkins:
I find that facts, truth, and logic have little effect on people who have strong bias against women - which sounds to me like the anti-feminsts you mention in your note. However, you might try telling them to read Title IX. My understanding is that about all it says is that you are not allowed to discriminate against people. If they don't believe in THAT, I give up on them.
I think the problem is that people truly do not understand bias and subtle discrimination and how unconscious bias works to advantage some people and disadvantage others. I think the solution to the problem is endless education and consciousness raising.
Question from Emma Stokes, Johns Hopkins Univ:
What are the salient incentives to those who could recruit, hire and retain (or punishments) more women faculty and how many is enough?
Nancy Hopkins:
Incentives: The best talent is likely to be distributed between men and women. If you overlook women, you are not getting the best. That should be a strong incentive! I think one could also argue that administrators who do not understand diversity issues probably have chosen the wrong line of work and should be replaced by people who do 'get it'.
As for how many women is enough: Ideally, in the short run, if the profession were designed for everyone, I think the percent of women hired shodul reflect the percent trained and/or availablein the applicant pool. Some argue that in the long run the facult's diversity should reflect that of the population.
I personally have my greatest concern for equity for all those who choose a profession. I wish numbers didn't matter as much, but it turns out they relaly do matter a lot.
Piper Fogg (Moderator):
We're just more than halfway through now. Keep those great questions coming.
Question from T. Tiso, Large State Research University:
I am a senior tenured female faculty member at a state research university, and I see the biases that are tolerated and more importantly, the lack of will from our leaders to enforce their own hiring procedures! The bureaucracy has grown to include the affirmative action and ombuds offices. How do we encourage our leaders to do more then just window dress? And how do we make a difference for the younger people so that we can really work for change? Do you see this happening?
Nancy Hopkins:
I hear you. There are days when I feel very optimistic and others when I wonder if we are really making progress that will be sustained. In the situation that you describe - where the very laws that exist to protect people have been circumvented - I think one might have to bring strong legal action against the institution. This is the type of situation where Title IX for example might be able to be used. And should be. But imagine how hard it would be for women faculty to have to do this!
That is why I would like to see some sort of help from outside the institutions. It is asking too much to ask women inside them to take such actions - while maintaining an active research and teaching program, of course!! Best of luck.
Question from Mary, from industry:
What are the names of the universities & colleges with the best environment (supportive) for women in engineering - do you have a list? I'd really appreciate your help.
Nancy Hopkins:
I don't have such a list. But in addition, my guess is that the micro environment is as important as the institution. Thus, you can have a bad chairman who ruins your life, or a bad colleague in your research area who excludes you and makes your life miserable, even though your president and dean might be very supportive of diversity. In other words, since bias resides in the minds of individuals, even a very strong central adminstration and set of policies can not completely protect women from experiencing an unfriendly and hostile work climate.
However, if the central adminstration doesn't get it and support diversity, then you are really in hot water and its pretty hopeless.
Question from E. Carr Everbach, Swarthmore College:
Dr. Hopkins, if teaching vs. research and personality sterotypes are only PART of the reasons for bias, what is the dominant reason?
Nancy Hopkins:
What I meant to say was that if you were to place men and women in a sitution where there was no teaching or service but only research, I am quite certain you would still find bias. I believe the research on gender discrimination shows that all of us - both men and women - undervalue women relative to men. This research is really fascinating and needs to be much more widely appreciated. How this bias works sems to me to lie at the heart of this problem. I think most of us do not have a good enough understanding of it yet.
Question from Christine Hult, Utah State University:
I'm a co-PI on an NSF-ADVANCE grant at Utah State with the goal of improving the recruitment & retention of women faculty in the sciences and engineering. We have been working now for a year on helping search committees to broaden their pools to include more women and minority candidates, with some success. A problem has surfaced recently with a search for a department head in a STEM college. Although there should be 40% or so women in the pool, only 10 white males actually applied for the job. The search committee seems to have been conscientious about inviting specific women to apply, yet none did. Do you have any suggestions for recruiting senior women into positions such as department head? Thanks for taking the time to chat with us.
Nancy Hopkins:
I think this is an important statement. You are addressing a problem that many others have encountered. Even when there is huge good will, the applicants just aren't there it seems. Why is this? And how can one find applicants?
I think the answer is complex. In part I think some women really are not applying. But in part, I think there are some avialable if you look in less traditional places.
Our dean of engineering and chairs of two of the engineering depts here were extremely effective in hiring women. When they told us how they did it, one could see how they had had to look in unusual places and take unusual measures to find the people. They were superb people, but it took more work to find them. But I, too, can tell you of searches - including ones headed by women - where there was every hope of finding a woman but no success in doing so.
It is NOT easy, and I think one has to keep at it and be creative in looking.
Question from Gloria Thomas, American Council on Education , Office of Women:
What is your perspective on universities allowing faculty members, who choose to do so, hold part-time tenure-track or tenured positions for a limited time period?
What about extending the probationary period for tenure-track faculty up to 10 years for those might need/desire more time--for various reasons--to prepare for tenure review?
Nancy Hopkins:
I think part-time tenure for a limited time for tenured faculty for family reasons is a wonderful thing. It's hard to work out some of the technical issues for the departments and universtiy, but a wonderful thing for the faculty. We have it at MIT now.
Time to tenure: I think extension for birth of a child are a good thing. How long to tenure is ideal in general, though, I do not know. I think we are still working out the variations that will help different faculty to manage different life and career patterns, while maintaining equity for all faculty. It's a process that is ongoing (but perhaps not fast enough). Nor do I know that there is one size-fits-all.
Question from Michele - American Association of University Women Legal Advocacy Fund President:
AAUW's Legal Advocacy Fund has supported women who challenge sex discrimination on campus for over 20 years. We recently released a research report titled, "Tenure Denied," discussing the costs of challenging the status quo, including career, financial, and emotional. What impact do you think challenges in the courtroom have had on women's opportunities versus pro-active efforts such as MIT -- such as policy changes and efforts beyond affirmative action?
Nancy Hopkins:
You are more of an expert than I on this. So thanks for asking and I hope you will send along your own answers. My 'sense of it' is that in the generation just ahead of me, quite a few women faculty sued. They often seem to have given up much of their life to do so. I think they helped all of us who came after them. I think the reason the MIT women could take a different (and much less painful) approach was that there were 16 of us who were able to get together. This made a convincing case that this was not a problem of an INDIVIDUAL but rather something systemic that was wrong, and which of course proved to be wrong nationally for so many women. When there are too few women, law suits are the only option you have open to you. We were so lucky to have this group of women who had been in the system long enough to see what was wrong and who were willing to work together to address it - and the right central administration/President to support us.
Question from E. Carr Everbach, Swarthmore College:
Dr. Hopkins, do you see any difference between research universities and small colleges in this area? Is it a research focus that causes some research-1 institutions to devalue the contributions of women, some of whom may have taken time off or reduced publication rate for family?
Nancy Hopkins:
I have not had nearly as much experience with small colleges. However, I have been truly surprised to hear from women faculty in small colleges whose problems were as bad as any I have heard of in large universities (and exaclty the same in type). But this is anecdotal and I do not know overall what the answer to your question is.
But I think its important to keep in mind that gender bias is a societal problem. Thus it is doubtful one can completely escape it anywhere.
That being said, I do think that the very very competitive nature some areas of research probably leads to some of the more intense problems of gender bias.
Piper Fogg (Moderator):
We are now out of time. Thanks for all your terrific questions. Sorry we didn 't have time to get to them all. Professor Hopkins, thank you so much for being with us today.
Nancy Hopkins:
What a pleasure and privilege to talk with all these readers. The questions were so interesting and important. Just knowing how many people out there understand these issues has certainly made my day!
Thanks to all of you who wrote.
Nancy Hopkins
Copyright © 2008 by The Chronicle of Higher Education