The Chronicle: Colloquy Live Transcript

Fighting Fakery

Thursday, June 24, at 2 p.m., U.S. Eastern time

Diploma mills continue to churn out new "graduates" every day. What should legitimate colleges do about them? Is government action called for?

A transcript of the chat follows.

Thomas Bartlett (Moderator):
Welcome to Colloquy Live, the Chronicle's live chat forum. I'm Thomas Bartlett and I am a reporter here. Our guest today is Alan Contreras, one of the few government officials fighting diploma mills. Please send in your questions for Mr. Contreras. Also, if you'd like to make a comment, send that in and we'll try to get it posted quickly ...

Question from Mark Grechanik, University of Texas at Austin:
Is it possible for our government to issue a list of accredited universities so that people (and human resource departments) can consult it when considering educational background of job applicants? What obstacles do you see to doing that?

Alan Contreras:
That project is underway today at the Department of Education. Contact John Barth in the Accreditation section for details. Of course, there are already published lists of accredited schools, notably the Higher Education Directory published by Heldref that comes out every fall.

Question from Judith, College of Education:
Are these bogus degrees awarded mainly at the undergraduate level or are master's and doctorates being awarded as well? How many states permit unaccredited institutions to operate? Which states?

Alan Contreras:
Most of the degrees we see are at the graduate level, plenty of MBAs and lots of doctorates. That is where the market demand is - people wanting to Move Up. The exception is that we hear of more bachelor's degrees among law enforcement and corrections personnel, where entry-level work is often undegreed. Almost all states, including Oregon, allow unaccredited colleges to operate. Remember that with rare exceptions all colleges start out unaccredited. The basic question isn't whether they are allowed, it is what standards are applied to them to ensure that they offer genuine educational programs. In many states the answer is "low standards." Montana, Wyoming, Hawaii and Mississippi are generally considered among the weakest, though Hawaii has some mechanisms in place for throwing out the worst suppliers. New Mexico has a reasonable new law but old unaccredited suppliers are grandfathered in. California has standards in place but patchy enforcement. It is partly an issue of whether state agencies have the staff and resources to actually enforce the standards that exist. Also, many states offer blanket religious exemptions that result in truly spectacular fakery, for example by the "religious" Hamilton U of Wyoming. Religious exemptions should either be disallowed or be limited to degrees with religious titles issued for religious purposes, not PhDs in aviation management.

Question from Helen MacDermott, Rutgers University, Class of 2001:
In your opinion, is there any value to be found in the "education" that one might receive at an unaccredited institution? Why or why not?

Alan Contreras:
Some unaccredited institutions offer a perfectly acceptable academic experience relative to the wide range of accredited institutions, some of which are simply technical schools and others of which are major universities. The archetype of an academically legitimate unaccredited school is perhaps Bob Jones U, but here in Oregon we have a small Great Books school called Gutenberg College that is not yet accredited, and there are a few others, e.g. William Carey U. in southern California. What matters is who the faculty are, whether they can teach, how credit is awarded and for what kind of work, the nature of the curriculum and the nature of student preparation.

Question from Steve Keuper. Kennedy Western University:
Many students at KWU feel that the sales folk have mislead them about accredidation not being so important, is there a way to get our money back?

Alan Contreras:
You need to discuss that with the consumer protection offices in the California and Wyoming Departments of Justice. Because Kennedy-Western has an agreement with the Oregon Attorney General not to offer degrees to Oregon residents, we do not see their promotional material and we don't know what claims they make. Their degrees are illegal for use in Oregon and a few other states.

Question from Dr. Schank RWTH Aachen, Germany:
How is it possible to separate a valid foreign degree from a dipoma mill's degree? Are there certain 'features' a real degree from abroad has?

Alan Contreras:
Very glad to get this question, because many of our recent cases involve foreign degrees, mainly from "universities" licensed by tiny Caribbean islands or doubtful governments in Africa, though we have dealt with equally aromatic suppliers from Denmark, Canada, Switzerland and Australia. First, there is NO completely clean list of world universities - none. UNESCO comes close but in fact has no genuine screening standards. This means that every situation has to be checked, in effect, by hand. Key issues are these: 1. Does the foreign school have genuine approval to issue degrees from the proper government agency that authorizes domestic colleges, or does it only have a business license? 2. Are its degrees all valid for use *inside* the host country (some offshore medical schools can't meet this standard)? 3. is it possible to identify and contact the teaching faculty from the supplier's published material? If not, don't trust it. 4. Does the supplier offer a significant portion of a degree, especially a graduate degree, based on life experience? A bad sign. 5. Does the host nation even HAVE a recognizable national higher education oversight function? Most small Caribbean nations, seemingly stuffed with colleges, do not. Therefore you know that the oversight process is missing or doubtful.

Question from Marilyn, small Midwestern theological seminary:
It seems to me that clergy and others associated with religious organizations are particularly prone to seek degrees from so-called "degree mills" and some such "institutions" even claim to be religious in nature. Will the fact that the government has in the past tended to avoid conflicts with religious institutions due to what I consider misinterpretation of the constitiutional mandate regarding separation of church and state limit what the federal (and some state) governments may be willing to do to control diploma mills. If so, do you think that this could contribute to the creation of diploma mills that hide behind religion to avoid regulation?

Alan Contreras:
The key issue is whether an institution that is exempt from state regulation on religious grounds can issue degrees in engineering or nuclear physics. This happens today and is obviously bad public policy, simply a way around meaningful regulation - it is the Wyoming approach that brought us Hamilton University. Oregon has historically allowed unaccredited religious colleges to issue degrees restricted to religious uses. I don't see a big problem with that.

Question from Darryl Stonewell, Oregon resident:
It's hard for me to believe that tens of thousands of people are all being duped by diploma mills, when it's so easy to check on a university. It's not hard to check them out in chat rooms and with the BBB, and it's obvious which ones are mills. So why does the government like Oregon's have to come in and confuse matters even further by lumping all online universities in the diploma mill category when they can't all be mills? It just makes things more confusing and limits people's choices.

Alan Contreras:
Several states, including Oregon, treat unaccredited college degrees as invalid *unless* the degree user can show that the degree supplier has acceptable academic standards. Some have succeeded in doing this. Oregon allows use of unaccredited degrees from schools that we have approved. People can buy as many degrees from as many sources as they like. The government only becomes concerned when these degrees are presented as credentials for employment etc. - there are public safety and consumer protection issues involved. We think most people who get bogus degrees know what they are getting and hope to get away with it. Most are not victims, they are partners in falsehood.

Question from Monica Barnes, ANDEAN PAST:
If one suspects that an on-line institution is a diploma mill, what steps can one take to draw this to the attention of government authorities who regulate education? I am particularly worried about a case in which a woman, already demonstrated to have claimed false degrees, is "certifying" immigrant health care workers.

Alan Contreras:
Send the information to an appropriate supervisor and simultaneously send a copy to an appropriate news media outlet or two. You'd be surprised what happens when daylight shines into dark corners.

Question from Renea Eshleman:
Alan, since much in the diploma mill arena is beyond the reach of state authorities, what role should the FTC, USEd, or other federal government entities take?

Alan Contreras:
The federal government ought to focus on two areas. First, it should continue the process of making sure that federal employees are all using legitimate degrees. Second, it should begin working toward standards to use for evaluating which foreign degrees (or fake foreign degrees such as the fraudulent ones issued by the entity called St. Regis University, which pretends to be from Liberia but actually runs out of Spokane, Washington)should be allowed into the U.S. as credentials. Right now we have things like "Rushmore University" and "Washington International University" pretending to be legitimate colleges but actually operating off little Caribbean islands. We should not have fifty different state laws dealing with foreign degrees. The feds also need to get involved when there is interstate sale of bogus degrees. Right now they generally don't, not since Allen Ezell's FBI operation some years ago.

Question from Sue Dawson/retired secondary school English teacher:
I spent seven summers obtaining my graduate degree without any outside monetary aid. If one could take away the huge profit from the diploma mills, then I think there would be fewer of them. Do you have a suggestion on how profit could be decreased without involvement by the government?

Alan Contreras:
Only by convincing society that we require far too many paper credentials, including degrees, which is my personal view. Many of the suppliers now locate offshore, e.g. Rushmore U, Washington Internation U, which incorporate on little Caribbean islands though the owners operate in the U.S. That is why we have to focus on the users, not the operators. The operators are too hard to reach, except maybe by the IRS.

Question from Larry Asplund, Portland Bible College:
As you know, there are some unaccredited institutions that work hard at maintaining academic integrity. What are a few of the elements you look for in defining a program as a degree mill as opposed to a more legitimate although unaccredited program?

Alan Contreras:
Hi Larry. The key factors we look at are: 1. Faculty qualifications - do the faculty have appropriate degrees in their teaching fields? 2. Policies on the award of credit - is credit awarded for appropriate levels of actual college-level work? If an entity awards a year's credit for an evening's work, that's a diploma mill. 3. Curriculum - is it actual college-level work (defined in Oregon law)organized in an appropriate way? 4. Admissions standards - if PhDs are being given to people who did not finish high school, that's a diploma mill. These are the key standards.

Question from Thomas Bartlett:
We're getting lots of questions about Kennedy-Western University. Several wonder why the degree is illegal in Oregon and other states. I know you've answered a similar question, but would you like to say anything more on this?

Alan Contreras:
Under Oregon law, an unaccredited degree supplier that allows people to acquire over half of a degree through life experience credits or that does not require students to do college-level work evaluated by qualified faculty is a diploma mill. The entity called Kennedy-Western University falls into this category based on testimony presented to the U.S. Senate in May. At that time we reclassified the entity from an illegal supplier of unknown status to a diploma mill.

Question from Lawrence Jordan emeritus small CC:
How do you expect to get a federal law when so many feds are using fake degrees?

Alan Contreras:
Senator Susan Collins (R-Maine) and others have managed to get the Office of Personnel Management to formally ban the use of unaccredited degrees to meet federal employment requirements. That is a major step. The feds are very concerned about people with bogus degrees being in security-sensitive situations, owing in part to the possibility of blackmail as well as questions of competence. Now the question is enforcement. That will be harder because no agency wants to admit that it has lousy personnel screening. We expect some improvement at the federal level but not a total housecleaning. We think that the feds will also become more careful about degrees issued in foreign countries.

Question from GetEducated.com, LLC:
One of the most frequent questions we get at our online degree clearinghouse from consumers is not just if an institution is accredited, but, what the difference/impact will be if they attend a college that is accredited by a regional board as opposed to say one accredited by the Distance Ed and Training Council. There can be great differences in acceptance or the utilitarianism of a degree accredited by one agency or the other though both are recognized by CHEA. Does Oregon or your work include any rules/regulations about truth in advertising when it comes to accredited schools accredited by diferent agencies disclosing the acceptance of their degrees by other CHEA recognized accreditors?

Alan Contreras:
Under Oregon law all accredited degrees are legal for use as general credentials. However, some jobs (e.g. teaching in public schools) require regional accreditation. Since these laws vary from state to state, it would be hard for, say, an ACICS school to keep up with fifty sets of changing laws. Also, not all accreditors have the same standards for the amount and type of student work required for degrees. This is largely what causes transfer problems.

Question from Higher Education Admin. Doctoral Student, The University of Alabama:
How are these people with these fake degrees being hired? Shouldn't the human resources departments at these institutions of higher education be checking into the background of these people when they are candidates for the job. I also wanted to ask do you ever see the government and accrediting agenicies stepping in stopping financial aid monies to institutions who continually hire people from diploma mills?

Alan Contreras:
Yes, there are serious screening problems - see this week's Chronicle for some examples. Screening for U.S. degrees is simple. There is a published directory of accredited schools. I don't know why more people don't use it.

Question from John Lindgren Kennedy Western University:
Is there a list already in the works by the Federal DOE for Human Resource Managers to check to see if a degree is considered legitimate? Why is KWU legitimate in some states and not others?

Alan Contreras:
In the U.S., interstate portability of degrees rests largely on accreditation. Because Kennedy-Western has never been accredited, the usability of its degrees depends on state laws, which differ. I hear that the feds are assembling a list of accredited schools. I have not heard anything about a list of unaccredited schools.

Question from Rachel Gering, prospective student:
There are an awful lot of online universities listed on Mr. Contreras' website as diploma mills. How many has he actually checked against his criteria that define a diploma mill?

Alan Contreras:
Under Oregon law, an unaccredited degree supplier that allows people to acquire over half of a degree through life experience credits or that does not require students to do college-level work evaluated by qualified faculty is a diploma mill. In many cases it is possible to tell right away that a supplier allows use of over 50 percent life experience credit. Also, legitimate schools tell you who their faculty are, diploma mills generally don't, and if they can't show that they have qualified faculty they are a diploma mill. Finally, any degree supplier that is not formally approved and listed by its host state or nation in effect does not exist at all and is therefore not even a school, thus a diploma mill owing to nonexistence.

Question from George, educational consultant:
Do you have a sense what role spam is playing in this issue? Do you think that is an effective marketing tool for them ... or it is just an irritation to the rest of us -- and one that tends to raise the visibility of the problem? In other words, is it worse now, or just more visible?

Alan Contreras:
The advent of the Internet is the single most important tool that diploma mills have. It allows them to operate extremely low-cost marketing from obscure locations, reaching all over the world. It also makes the problem more obvious and will probably result in more anti-diploma mill laws, but in the intervening years the carp owners will become rich.

Question from John Lindgren Kennedy Western University Student:
Mr. Contreras, Why does Sallie Mae allow KWU to use them for student loans, which extend over a 15 year period if they are not a credible instituion? Wouldn't Sallie Mae be aware of what is happening with KWU and the testimonies at the congressional hearings? How does one deal with Sallie Mae on this issue?

Alan Contreras:
Sallie Mae is essentially a business. I imagine that they have business reasons for working with a particular entity, whether or not that entity is considered legitimate.

Question from Scott Dittman, Washington and Lee University:
We recently had a very good discussion on one of the registrar e-lists about the fakedegrees.com site where so many institutions are listed in a drop-down menu. In trying to track down the owners of that site (to send cease-and-desist letters) we found it impossible to locate someone official. Any advice or rememdy for those of us who want to protect the good names of our own institutions in fighting these "fakers?"

Alan Contreras:
I think some joint action from the consumer fraud units of state attorneys general would get the needed information and action. In each state, ask for a representative of the AG's office to attend your next local meeting and give them an earful. Call the media at the same time.

Question from A'Man, e.student:
Sir, when you say "In many states the answer is "low standards." Montana, Wyoming, Hawaii and Mississippi are generally considered among the weakest..." What is the basis for this consideration, and how can the Dept. of Education assist these states and low-standard academic entities within them, reach a level of quote un-quote minimal standard?

Alan Contreras:
States like Montana and Hawaii do not really have an ongoing evaluation process for private colleges. Wyoming allows any entity to call itself religious and then start issuing all sorts of degrees in nonreligious fields (a problem in some otehr states, too). I am not sure what the problem is in Mississippi but if reptiles like LaCrosse crawl into it, it obviously has limited useful oversight. The U.S. department of Education has essentially no role to play regarding unaccredited colleges, since they are not eligible for financial aid. There is talk of establishing a "model code" for state regulators, that could serve as an example for other states.

Question from Terry Clarke. PH.D. The University of Wales:
Why should it be against the law to claim a degree from a diploma mill? It should, however, be agains the law to claim a degree from an accredited institiution. The burden should be on employers to verify the accreditation of the institution, and the employer should check to see that the person actually received the degree (i.e., let the buyer beware).

Alan Contreras:
It is illegal because these people end up in positions where they can do harm. They get there by using bogus degrees. It's a consumer protection role. It is of course also illegal to claim a degree that you don't have from a real university, e.g. Strathclyde, Uppsala or Harvard.

Question from Nancy Carriuolo, assoc. commissioner, RI:
I am curious about your position. Who is your employer and how is your position as diploma mill fighter funded?

Alan Contreras:
I am a state employee and work for the Oregon Student Assistance Commission, which is mainly a financial aid agency. My principal duty is evaluation and approval of non-Oregon schools that want to start here, and local start-ups. This is all applicant fee-funded. About 10 percent of my position is state general fund for the consumer protection work I do related to diploma mills.

Question from Michael Foster, U of Maryland Eastern Shore:
With such a great number of people obtaining this degree, it is interesting to note that many of them are being fired, if they are even found out, for having the degree but not necessarily from poor work performance. Does this mean that perhaps higher education needs to be more creative in developing programs that meet the needs of a segment of the market that is demanding higher education creditials but with flexibility in in terms of time, local, etc.?

Alan Contreras:
I think you are right on. When I worked for the University of Oregon, we surveyed our distance ed students to find out who they really were and what they wanted. To our surprise, almost all of them - well over 80 percent, as I recall - were regular matriculated students who simply wanted to take courses at times convenient for them. It was not the content they disliked about the campus, it was the *physical classroom* concept. My own view is that we as a society require far too many degrees in far too many professions, as easy proxies for skill sets. That is partly why diploma mills exist.

Question from Stephen Yates - Retired:
Alan, What is your guess at the percentage of the current workforce (governmental and private)that has fake degrees, and it would seem to me that any organization that offers a masters or doctorate for $2,000 to $5,000 is a deploma mill. So why is it so difficult for people to recognize these institutions.

Alan Contreras:
No idea on workforce size issue - John Bear and Allen Ezell are coming out with a new book on diploma mills this fall and they may discuss the issue. I think most people who purchase these degrees know what they are getting.

Question from Tim, Il. Bd. of Higher Ed.:
Doesn't ACE maintain guides to foreign (to the US) institutions, which describe the education structure and degree structure of those countries? If so, are they current and what is your experience with them?

Alan Contreras:
ACE does this and so does AACRAO. We typically use AACRAO, but also consult with experienced foreign degree evaluators such as Josef Silny Associates in Florida, Educational Credential Evaluators in Milwaukee and occasionally others. Foreign degree evaluation has become complicated by the advent of false certifcations by foreign officials and the fact that some countries simply have no higher ed oversight but suddenly have lots of colleges.

Question from Jay Andy, Columbia University, NYC, NY, & Brown University, Prov, RI:
Mr. Contreras: Is it not counterproductive to produce a list of "diploma mills" that can in no way be exhaustive and comprehensive? Many individuals, companies,HR departments, etc, will review your list, not see a known, bogus diploma mill on it, and thus assume that the actual diploma mill in question, is ok. Are you not overstepping the bounds of educational propriety by doing this? Whynot allow the marketplace to weed out the good from the bad and the unknown? Thanks.

Alan Contreras:
The marketplace is what *causes* the problem - there is always a market for easy answers and tainted goods. Our list is perhaps ten percent of what's out there but it gives consumers a warning.

Thomas Bartlett (Moderator):
That's all the time we have for today's chat. Thanks for all your questions. And I'd like to especially thank Alan Contreras for being our guest today. Any final comments, Alan?

Alan Contreras:
I appreciate the chance to chat with people. There will always be disagreement about which degrees are "best" but I hope that we can move toward a better understanding of which ones are "real."

Thomas Bartlett (Moderator):
A transcript of this chat will be posted shortly.