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A Conservative of the Old SchoolThursday, May 6, at 2 p.m., U.S. Eastern timeMore than half a century has passed since Russell Kirk defined the intellectual legacy of the American right with his book The Conservative Mind. Today, some scholars ask, is the political success of the conservative movement consistent with the principles of one of its founding fathers? Talk of "intellectual diversity" or "the culture wars" often proceeds as if there were just two sides, left and right, hurling polemics at one another. But scholars influenced by the late Russell Kirk -- the thinker and essayist who, in the early 1950s, began defining the terms of a conservative intellectual revival -- contend that the situation is more complex than that. They stress the differences between contemporary "movement conservatism" and the ideas that Kirk derived from Edmund Burke and other critics of liberalism. Are Russell Kirk's notions of tradition and "the moral imagination" still relevant to politics and cultural criticism? Are the Kirkians stuck in the 18th century, unable to face the problems of the 21st? Contemporary debates in academe are often defined as a conflict between the neoconservatives and the multiculturalists. Where would Russell Kirk fit in that framework? Or does his legacy provide a stimulus to rethink the problems of the day? » A Conservative of the Old School (5/7/2004) W. Wesley McDonald, a professor of political science at Elizabethtown College, in Pennsylvania, is the author of Russell Kirk and the Age of Ideology (University of Missouri Press, 2004). In 1980 he helped Russell Kirk compile selections for The Portable Conservative Reader (Viking Penguin, 1982). Scott McLemee (Moderator): Welcome to the Chronicle's online colloquy devoted to the work and influence of Russell Kirk. After more than half a century, his book The Conservative Mind (1953) looks like something more than a historical document. Kirk's effort to define a distinct cultural and intellectual tradition for conservatism had a catalytic effect on the post-war/pre-Reagan American right. Today, Kirk's understanding of that legacy poses interesting and difficult questions about the very movement he helped midwife. For that matter, a reader who shares none of Kirk's perspectives can read his work with some appreciation for his eloquence, as reminder of what political discourse in the grand style was like. Kirk would never have thrived as a TV pundit. He's too ruminative; his prose does not yell, nor send spittle flying. Here today to discuss Kirk's ideas and influence is W. Wesley McDonald, a professor of political science at Elizabethtown College. Last month, the University of Missouri Press published his book Russell Kirk and the Age of Ideology -- the first book-length monograph on Kirk's thought, an effort to dig out the structure of his worldview. This is no easy task. It is fair to apply to Kirk himself something he wrote about his own intellectual master, Edmund Burke: that he "could express principles in the abstract for only a few consecutive paragraphs." Mr. McDonald sketches in some of the missing links in understanding Kirk's worldview, which also has the effect of clarifying its differences from the work of other political thinkers, then and now. We've had a number of questions come in, several of which Mr. McDonald has already answered. More are welcome. We also invite comments, whether on topic directly covered in the article or related to other aspects of Kirk or contemporary conservatism. There is no ideological litmus test, of course. Everyone from pre-paleoconservatives to postmodern neo-Marxists, and all points in between, should feel free to chime in. Question from Scott McLemee: Thanks very much for taking the time to discuss Kirk with us this afternoon, Professor McDonald. Do you have any sense, yet, of how your book is being received, whether among Kirkians or otherwise? Or is it too soon to say? W. Wesley McDonald: Well, the book has only been out for a few months and I haven't received any word from my publisher about sales. The last time I looked, my book ranked 370,000th on Amazon.com, so I don't expect it to make the best seller list anytime soon. However, I attended a meeting of the Philadelphia Society (an organization which Kirk help found) in Chicago last weekend and was surprised by the number of people who had read my book and had appreciative things to say about it. One young fellow had marked his copy extensively with a highligher. I was very flattered. Also, comments about the book are appearing on many web sites. I expect it to be reviewed soon in National Review, The Washington Times, and The American Conservative. Question from Lee Cheek, Lee University: Wes, it might be of interest to share with folks the setting of Mecosta, as well as Dr. Kirk's attachment to rural life. Also, I was always impressed with his work ethic. I have never been associated with a more diligent scholar. W. Wesley McDonald: Born in Plymouth, a small suburb of Detroit, where he was reared and schooled, Kirk spent his boyhood summers in Mecosta, Michigan among the clannish Pierces, to whom he was related on his maternal side. Mecosta is a tiny village with an approximate population of 450. Located about two hundred miles northwest of Detroit and sixty five miles northeast of Grand Rapids, Kirk's ancestral home can be found on the map, he suggested, by drawing "a line westward across the southern peninsula of Michigan, roughly from Saginaw Bay to Muskegon." Living amidst the deprivations of the severe rural poverty of upstate Michigan during the Depression could have been an intellectual and spiritual misfortune. Yet, here, despite the region’s backwardness, Kirk found his spiritual home and the central focus of his work, roots community where he felt spiritually linked with his ancestors who had originally settled the area. This bleak environment, remote and harsh, permitted him to witness human nature in sharp relief. The human oddities he found there and the local legends would become grist for Kirk's literary mill. I was Russell’s assistant and a frequent visitor to Piety Hill (as he called his residence in Mecosta, MI) from 1969 to 1980. The last time, I spent an extended period of time at his residence was during the summer of 1985. I assisted him with several books, including Eliot and His Age and The Viking Portable Conservative Reader. While working on my master’s thesis during the summer of 1969, I slept on the second floor of Kirk’s library, an old converted toy factory. Kirk worked the graveyard shift then. At about midnight, he would begin his nocturnal tasks, sitting in his straight back chair behind a sturdy wooden table. The chair looked so uncomfortable that I was convinced that it had been deliberately designed to mortify the flesh. Gazing distractedly off into space, he would puff on his thick cigar while he collected his thoughts. Then he would pound furiously away on his antediluvian Remington electric typewriter from which words would pour out steadily until about five or six in the morning. Finished, he would look up from his typewriter to ask me, “Mr. McDonald, care to go for donuts and coffee?” If I couldn’t make it through the night and had retired early, he would go upstairs to fetch me from my cubbyhole. We would stroll down to the town bakery as the sun peaked over the horizon. At about eight in the morning, we would both turn in. Kirk would sleep for about four hours before rousing himself to begin the day’s routines. Kirk always kept his deadlines. William F. Buckley once noted in a tribute to him that his columns for National Review unfailingly arrived on time. He did not allow even his honeymoon, according to Buckley, interrupt his work. The last time I was a long term guest at Piety Hill was in 1980 when I was using his library to begin my work on a study of his social and political thought. Since Kirk was often away on lecture tours, we students (there were several of us) were left largely on our own. The highlight of our day came in the morning, when we would pick up the mail at the Mecosta Post Office and bring it back to the Kirk kitchen. At the kitchen table, we would read both our personal mail and the newspapers, and engage in lively discussions about current events. Then, I would walk over to the library where I would sort out Kirk’s mail and start on my own work. If Kirk was home and had guests, we would all gather in the evening in his large dining room for the main meal.
Kirk fancied himself a gentleman farmer. He had a peculiar obsession, in my opinion, with planting saplings all over Piety Hill. His habit of randomly sticking pathetic looking twigs into the ground, with the expectation they would eventually become trees, had little to do with the art of landscaping. Rather, it was a personal reforestation project in which he was trying to undo some of the damage done by his ancestors who had logged out the area. These saplings, many of which have become lovely, majestic trees, were also his gift to posterity.
Question from Sean Busick, Kentucky Wesleyan College: Dr. McDonald, Near the end of The Conservative Mind, Kirk proposes a brief program for American conservatives. His program includes items such as: "strict surveillance of the leviathan business and the leviathan union;" "preservation of local liberties;" and "national humility." Some would argue that these are no longer among our national virtues. Instead of a work of conservation, traditional conservatives may now face a work of restoration. How do you think Kirk would view the current American situation? W. Wesley McDonald: It is true that genuine rooted communities, intact families, and traditional gender roles were much the norm then when Kirk wrote those words. The battles for prescriptive institutions, civilizing prejudices, and inherited hierarchies have been by-and-large going to the Left. Even the shrinking of the industrial working class and union membership during the past thirty years would not have given Kirk much solace. In fact, working class neighborhoods came closer to being true communities; as Kirk defined them, than do today’s middle-class suburbs. Civic and church participation has declined while the rates of divorce, drug addiction, and abortion have climbed. The loss of community, with its attendant issues of deracination and social boredom, is felt more keenly today than when Kirk first discussed this topic fifty years ago. Kirk would have no illusions about the difficulty of the tasks now facing conservatives. Yet, he never gave into despair. His vision was always a hopeful one. The job of the conservative is not to mindlessly conserve the immediate past, but to retain what is best in our culture and traditions. The job of the statesman, in Burke's words, is to "both conserve and reform." Furthermore, conservatives perform a valuable service by reminding us of the lessons of the past. Question from Ophelia Benson, Butterflies and Wheels: Is there a tension in Kirk's emphasis on both freedom and friendliness toward "authority, prejudice, tradition, custom, and habit"? Don't the items in the second list tend to be inimical to the first? W. Wesley McDonald: The principles of moral and political order embodied in Kirk's political thought have frequently been criticized for allegedly having about them the distasteful odor of authoritarianism. A widespread hostility exists, especially among those of a liberal or libertarian orientation, toward any body of thought that seeks to impose restraints upon the will of either individuals or popular movements. Unable to bear any norm of conduct above that of individual feeling, critics argue that any external or internal restraints placed on the spontaneous will of the individual by society, government, culture, or religion constitute barriers to the fulfillment of his true humanity. Hence, the removal of all moral, cultural, and legal restraints is a prerequisite to the realization of the full potentiality of the individual. The desire to unleash impulses which have hitherto been restrained by custom, traditional moral codes of behavior, political institutions, religion, habit or social manners is periodically expressed in society by those who out of boredom are easily excited by the anticipation of novelty or the opportunity to express repressed emotions. Liberty defined as the absence of limitations placed on the individual will and appetite implies that liberty and order are incompatible. Order in the soul means that a certain quality of impulses, those originating in the arbitrary or selfish will of the individual, must be disciplined with reference to the individual's ultimate spiritual purpose. The order of the commonwealth, likewise, involves a similar disciplining of the arbitrary, unchecked will of the sovereign (regardless of whether sovereignty resides in a single individual or a majority of the citizens) with reference to the basic constitutional law of the regime. But does this disciplining power entail a loss of liberty, or should it be viewed as a necessary precondition for true liberty? Without it, would liberty descend into license? Would the ensuing anarchy become so intolerable that people would eagerly embrace the grim order of the authoritarian state to escape its horrors?
Kirk made the case for order as a precondition of liberty. He argued that liberty is possible only when most citizens have disciplined their selfish and antisocial passions. A direct relationship between the range of liberty which a people can beneficially enjoy and their capacity for individual self discipline was a fundamental principle of Kirk. As Edmund Burke, one of the great founding fathers of the conservative tradition, wrote: "Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitutions of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." There must exist control of will and appetite both for the individual and the government. "Society requires not only that the passions of individuals should be subjected, but that even in the mass and body, as well as in individuals, the inclinations of men should frequently be thwarted, their will controlled, and their passions brought into subjection." These passions are disciplined by social, moral, and religious restraints. The ability of the bulk of citizens to bring inner control over their passions seems to determine, as the American Humanist Irving Babbitt pointed out, "the degree to which any community is capable of political liberty." The task of the statesman, then, is to mediate between order and liberty. This task, Burke knew, can never be settled in the abstract but must be adjusted to circumstances. Liberties and restrictions, he wrote, "vary with times and circumstances, and admit of infinite modifications, they cannot be settled upon any abstract rule; and nothing is so foolish as to discuss them upon that principle." An individual is qualified for liberty in proportion to his ability to live a life of self discipline. No appeal to an abstract principle, divorced from the actual concrete circumstances of a particular situation, can be a sufficient moral basis for granting liberty. "Is it because liberty in the abstract may be classed amongst the blessings of mankind, that I am seriously to felicitate a madman, who has escaped from the protecting restraint and wholesome darkness of his cell, on his restoration to the enjoyment of light and liberty?" asked Burke. "Am I to congratulate a highwayman and murderer, who has broke prison, upon the recovery of his natural rights?" Rights and liberties then, contrary to the arguments of Lockean liberals, the American Civil Liberties Union and other advocates of abstract individual rights, do not exist apart or against society since, as Kirk stressed, they “can only exist within a social order—that is, in community.” Therefore, when community begins to fail entirely “the most fundamental civil liberties, including the life, cannot be secured.” There are worse things than loss of liberty, as people who have lived through great political and social upheavals know well. In such circumstances, it is not unusual for a desperate people to embrace even a totalitarian master rather than endure continual fear of loss of their property and maybe their lives.
Question from Kevin Morrissey, Member, Burke's Small Platoons: Kirk probably would have been against the Iraq War, but how would the author of the Politics of Prudence say we should do now that we are there? W. Wesley McDonald: Kirk was a Robert Taft isolationist who opposed the Gulf War and would have probably have had even stronger reservations about the current Iraq War. He certainly would have contemptuously dismissed the notion that it was possible to transform Iraq into a Western style democracy. He repeatedly argued that governments grow out the traditions and culture of a people and are not the products of deliberate design. American democracy is not for export since it developed out of the unique circumstances of the American historical experience. The problem now is how can American extricate itself from this morass? Since Kirk was not a military expert, he would have no specific recommendations here. However, he would advise us to get out of Iraq as soon as practically possible. Kirk strongly favored using military power to defend America's vital interests, but he deplored waging wars for abstractions like democracy and human rights. Question from Paul Gottfried, Elizabethtown College: If Kirk was as far removed from the contemporary, predominantly neocon establishment Right as Professor McDonald asserts, how does he explain the willingness of the Heritage Foundation and other fixtures of this Right to appropriate Kirk? W. Wesley McDonald: Kirk is an iconic figure in the conservative movement who cannot be simply ignored. He is sometimes quoted selectively to promote agendas that would have been foreign to his thinking and nature in order to make them appear to be more genuinely "conservative." Question from Don Kenner, Librarian: Kirk is at least as influential as Leo Strauss, but his "public face" is often that of Chronicles magazine and Pat Buchananites, both of whom are obsessed with Israel and immigrants. Does the marginalization of paleo-cons after 9-11 serve to further distance Kirkians from from public discourse? W. Wesley McDonald: I am a little puzzled by Mr. Kenner's assertion that Kirk is frequently associated with Chronicles magazine. Chronicles is edited by Thomas Fleming and publishes articles by noted paleoconservatives such as Paul Gottfried, Sam Francis, Justin Raimondo and Peter Brimelow. However, I can't recall Kirk ever contributing anything to its pages. In any case, he was not particularly close to either its editors or most of its contributors. During the 1980s, when the Chronicles was a tiny fledging publication, I remember Kirk and I having a brief conversation about it , and he didn't seem then to be very enthusiastic about the magazine. As for the issues of Israel and immigration, Kirk rarely spoke about them. Near the end of his life, in a lecture given at the Heritage Foundation, he complained that the Neoconsevatives too often seem to "mistake Tel Aviv for the capitol of the United States." (This remark provoked a furious response from Midge Decter.) The issue of immigration has become more important since Kirk's death. I believe that if he were alive today that he would be troubled the present US policy on immigration. A policy of "open borders" immigration would threaten the preservation of traditional American culture and values. If left unchecked, it would amount to a kind of alien invasion. Kirk was an old fashioned Robert Taft Republican as is Buchanan. As such, they both opposed the notion, popular in certain neoconservative circles, that America has a moral responsiblity to fight wars for global democracy. Kirk was against the Gulf War and I think, if he were still alive, would have expressed even stronger opposition to the current Iraqi entanglement.
Continual warfare and uncheck immigration are bringing about radical changes in American culture, traditions and sense of community. Kirk, then, would have dreaded these alterations in the fabric of our society.
Question from Scott McLemee: I'd like to get you to comment some more about that line you quote from Kirk, in which he said that some neoconservatives, such as Midge Decter, "confused Tel Aviv with the capital of the United States." That sort of comment may not be anti-Semitic in any strict sense. But when combined with enthusiasm for Pat Buchanan (a political figure whose anti-fascism is not, perhaps, one of the more conspicuous aspects of his worldview), it can certainly give some people reservations. So I wonder if you'd comment more on that. In The Conservative Mind, Kirk writes that Jewish religious and cultural traditions are conservative. And Benjamin Disraeli is clearly one of the book's heroes, so to speak. But how do you respond to critics (whether on the left or the right) who suggest that Kirk had an anti-Semitic streak? W. Wesley McDonald: I knew Kirk for Kirk for twenty-five years and I never heard him utter a single anti-Semitic remark. He was, though, sometimes critical of Israel's influence on American foreign policy. The question of whether that would make him an anti-Semite I will leave to others to decide. In any case, how does one prove a negative? *Sigh* Question from John J. Miller, National Review: Why aren't there more books about Russell Kirk? There isn't even a straightforward biography available. Is this a case of the liberal academy ignoring an important conservative or something else? W. Wesley McDonald: I would recommend Russell Kirk by James E. Person Jr., (Madison Books, 1999) as a very good biography of Kirk. One of the arguments that I make in my book is that Kirk has been neglected not only by academics, who do not take him seriously as a thinker, but by many figures on the political Right as well. Question from Michael J. Connolly, Franklin Pierce College: A few questions on Russell Kirk: 1.) Why did Kirk refer to himself as a "Bohemian Tory?" Considering his great admiration of Burke, why not Whig? 2.) Do you think Kirk's works lend themselves to classroom use? If so, what works in particular? 3.) What did Kirk think of Leo Strauss and his influence on American conservatism?
Thanks for the time -- I look forward to reading your book. 2. I would recommend Roots of American Order, which was intended to be a college textbook, and The American Cause, which ISI recently republished. The Prospects for Conservatives is a good summary of conservative principles.
3. Kirk strongly criticized Strauss's interpretation of Burke's thought and considered his teachings to be abstract and ahistorical. The Struassians stress equality and natural rights at the expense of custom, tradition and prescriptive institutions. Kirkians and Straussians are usually poles apart on most important issues. Scott McLemee (Moderator): In part to give our guest some time to catch up with the incoming questions -- and in part to be, as the saying goes, "fair and balanced" -- it might be good to include some critical comments about Edmund Burke. For that, let's go to a contemporary critic William Hazlitt, whose "Character of Mr. Burke" was reprinted in his Political Essays (1819). If Burke is a conservative icon, then Hazlitt ought to serve as his opposite number for the left (despite the possible disqualification of being a dead white European male). Burke, as Hazlitt put it, "applied the habit of reflection, which he had borrowed from his metaphysical studies, but which was not competent to the discovery of any elementary truth in that department, with great facility and success, to the mixed mass of human affairs. He knew more of the political machine than a recluse philosopher; and he speculated more profoundly on its principles and general results than a mere politician." That all sounds reasonably fair-minded. He's critical of Burke's limitations, but he admires him quite a bit. But I want to quote another passage, which goes to the point that Mr. McDonald just addressed. Burke supported the American revolution and opposed the French. And Hazlitt thought that made Burke a hypocrite at best. So here's the tough love: "Mr Burke, the opponent of the American war, and Mr Burke, the opponent of the French Revolution, are not the same person, but opposite persons -- not opposite persons only, but deadly enemies. In the latter period, he abandoned not only all his practical conclusions, but all the principles on which they were founded. He proscribed all his former sentiments, denounced all his former friends, rejected and reviled all the maxims to which he had formerly appealed as incontestable. In the American war, he constantly spoke of the right of the people as inherent, and inalienable: after the French Revolution, he began by treating them with the chicanery of a sophist, and ended by raving at them with the fury of a maniac.....The burthen of all his speeches on the American war, was conciliation, concession, timely reform, as the only practicable or desirable alternative of rebellion: the object of all his writings on the French Revolution was, to deprecate and explode all concession and all reform, as encouraging rebellion, and as in irretrievable step to revolution and anarchy. In the one, he insulted kings personally, as among the lowest and worst of mankind; in the other, he held them up to the imagination of his readers, as scared abstractions. In the one case, he was a partisan of the people, to court popularity; in the other, to gain the favour of the Court, he became the apologist of all courtly abuses."
And with that, Hazlitt was just getting started.....Anyway, now that we've had equal time for the opinions of the extreme left wing (circa two hundred years ago), let's go back to the Q&A's still in progress. Question from James Easterman, University of Indiana: To what extent did Kirk share in Edmund Burke's belief that the rise of theory would be the end of genuine liberty and virtue--and if he did, how was he not more pessimistic than he was, given that the trend had only grown much worse since Burke's time, when the spirit of the French Revolution might still have seemed like something that could be contained. W. Wesley McDonald: I suppose that what Prof. Easterman means here by "theory" is what Burke meant when he complained about the "abstractions" and the "armed doctrines" of the metaphysicians and economists of his day. This is the kind of thinking that Kirk had in mind when he discussed ideology. A central theme of my book is the examination of Kirk's reponse to ideologies of both the Left and Right. Conservatism is the "negation of ideology," he argued. He believed that the growth of ideologies threathens the civilized order. Therefore, the task of conservatism must be to defend old truths against ideological challenges. Despite the apparent victories of some ideological movements in our time, Kirk believe that in the long run that the enduring dogmas of civilization would ultimately prevail. Question from Bob Cheeks, freelance writer: How successful do you believe the contemporary conservative movement has been considering that both parties are statist in form and context? What course of action do you recommend for those of us who can not support either the Remocrats or Depublicans on moral or philosophical grounds. Thanks! W. Wesley McDonald: As I state in my book, I have great reservations about the success of the conservative movement despite recent Republican victories. I think that Kirk would have likewise been troubled by the ideological direction of the Republican Party today. Kirk did not always vote for the Republican candidate for the presidency. He had voted for Norman Thomas and when he couldn't stomach either Ford or Carter in 1976, he cast his vote for his good friend Sen. Eugene McCarthy. Question from Leon Dixon, Independent: Try to name five current figures, magazine, journals, people who would be solidly in Kirk's mold. For instance, would Cal Thomas, Pat Buchanan, Crisis, National Review, Thomas Sowell, Joe Sobran, etc. W. Wesley McDonald: The persons who would be most closely allied philosophically with Kirk would be Forrest McDonald, Clyde Wilson, Claes Ryn and several younger person such as Lee Cheek, James Person, Wilfred McClay, and Gleaves Whitney. John Attarian and Gerald Russello have written extensively about Kirk and clearly admire him. Kirk supported Pat Buchanan's campaign for the presidency and the candidacy of John Engler, the former governor of Michigan. The publications that are most sympathetic to Kirk are The American Conservative magazine and Humanitas, a scholarly journal. Question from R. Johnson, U. of Texas: Given Dr. Kirk's critique of ideology, it is perhaps understandable that a branded school, al la the Straussians, has yet to grow around his work. By what means can traditionalists develop a more rigorous presence in the academy? W. Wesley McDonald: I wish I knew the answer to that question. Quite frankly, the academy is not a very hospitable place for traditionists. My own career has suffered because of my beliefs. My advice to any young person of a traditionalist persuasion considering a university career is to be prepared to be judged by different standards than persons who express more acceptable p.c. views. Until the likes of Bill Gates donates a fortune to establish a college in the Kirkean mold, I doubt this situation will change. Question from Keith Pennock: I am reading Politics of Prudence by Kirk. In the book on pg. 19 of the 1998 edition, he says the second conservative principle is: "the conservative adheres to custom, convention and continuity...Conservatives are champions of custom, convention, and continuity because they prefer the devil they know to the devil they don't know." My question is simply this, given this maxim would a conservative not have supported the American Revolution? I find this odd because Kirk has elsewhere quotes from Adams and Patrick Henry, two notable revolutionaries, but it seems that Conservatism is more about the status quo than about change even if principled. Is there a conservative principle that I am missing that eclipses its maxim of slow incrementalism when it comes to change? W. Wesley McDonald: A chapter in my book examines the complicated problem of tradition and reform. Kirk frequently quoted Burke's desciption of the American Revolution as a "revolution prevented, not made." In other words, the true revolutionary was the British government that was attempting to take away the traditional rights of Englishmen that had been enjoyed by the American colonists. The American patriots were fighting to preserve old rights rather than to establish new ones. Reactionaries opposes all change, but conservatives recognize that unyielding resistance to the pressures for change would be futile. In his social, cultural, and moral thought, the conservative instead strives to balance the competing needs for permanence and change by endeavoring "to conserve the best in our traditions and our institutions" and "reconciling that best with necessary reform from time to time." The standard for a statesman must be, as Burke wrote, the "disposition to preserve," combined with "an ability to improve." Whether the conservative should be an advocate of reform or an opponent of change depends on the specific circumstances. Change can either renew a society or bring about its ruination. To preserve continuity, Burke advised a cautious approach to reform. Although change is necessary to conservation, the alteration of present institutions and customs should proceed only after careful deliberation. Change in society should occur like the growth of a great oak tree. A human observer hardly senses any change at all, but the oak does grow. Burke saw that reform carried out in a civilized spirit was absolutely necessary to the continued vitality of society: "A state without the means of some change is without the means of its conservation. Without such means it might even risk the loss of that part of the constitution which it wished the most religiously to preserve." On the other hand, whirlwind alteration in which the past is rudely cast aside precipitates destructive social upheavals.
It is part of the duty of the statesman to carry out alteration with caution and a veneration toward long established institutions. Question from Kevin, Major Catholic Institution of Higher Learning: Is there a tension in how the conservative movement is said to be influenced by both Russell Kirk and Leo Strauss? After all, Kirk had much in common with the "paleo-cons," who denied the idea of natural right; Strauss was a famous advocate of the idea. Is there some overlap between them? W. Wesley McDonald: As I argue in my book, Kirk and Strauss took conflicting positions on the role of tradition, reason and natural rights. There may be some areas where there is superficial agreement, but, by-and-large, they were philosophical worlds apart. Question from Isaac Fong University of California Hastings College of the Law (first year law student): Can Kirk's conservative vision survive ongoing trends of moral, cultural, and ethnic differentiation and fragmentation? How can this vision be transmitted in a manner that renders it relevant and attractive, yet still intact and true to its roots? W. Wesley McDonald: As T.S. Eliot wrote, "there are no gained causes, because there are no lost causes." I have no idea of what the future may hold, however, I know that "the permanent things" to which Kirk appealled embodied those enduring norms which civilization can only neglect for a long period at great peril. We should strive to understand them even if there seems little hope that they shall prevail in the near future. At the end of the first chapter of "The Conservative Mind, Kirk writes, "If a conservative order is indeed to return, we ought to know the tradition which is attached to it, so that we may rebuild society; if it is not to be returned; still we ought to understand conservative ideas so we may rake from the ashes what scorched fragments of civilization escape the conflagration of unchecked will and appetite." Question from Leon Dixon, Independent: Kirk's reality was a world faced with Soviet domination aided by liberal movements within the West. What might he, had he lived longer, had to say about the current situation where conservatives do not face that overwhelming peril? W. Wesley McDonald: The threat of Soviet communism was not a central issue in his thought. I don't think that he ever believed that the Soviet Union was the major danger facing the Western World. In his mind, there were more immediate dangers, closer to home. Today, I think that he would be primarily concerned with the tendency of some conservatives to advocate wars for global democracy. As an isolationist, he was extremely suspicious of overseas military adventures. They usually lead to disasters abroad and result in the further centralization of governmental power domestically. Question from William Dennis, consultant: Kirk was a hiker, naturalist, and lover of the out-of-doors, and certainly a conservationist. But did he think environmental concerns were largely a governmental or a private and personal responsibility? W. Wesley McDonald: Kirk was always suspicious governmental power. In his own community, he fought against the development of the Canadian lakes. He frequently spoke out against the ruinous spoilation of the environment by big business. He also was critic of tearing down old settled communities in order to create shopping malls and highways. He always preferred people taking the initiative themselves to conserve the environment and community rather than leaving it up to government. Comment from Michael Becker: The real question is, "How do you define conservative political success?" Today, we live in a nanny state where individuals are protected through a panelopy of government programs ranging from HeadStart to SSI. A vast portion of our federal budget is "entitlements" that could never have stood the test of the 10th amendment. If conservatives were being successful, we would be rolling back these programs. We would be requiring specific, note SPECIFIC, constitutional authority for every piece of legislation. Were we to do that, being a member of Congress would be a part time job. Question from Rod Montgomery, no institution: What has become of conservatives of the line of Edmund Burke and John Adams? The only ones I can think of offhand are Dr. Jerry Pournelle and maybe John Derbyshire. Everyone else seems to want to make conservatism into an ideology. W. Wesley McDonald: Of course, that is one of the complaints that I make in my book. Modernist ideologues so dominate the discussion now that conservatives of Kirk's persuasion have been effectively marginalized. Question from Cliff Classen none: In The Roots of Order, Russell Kirk makes a powerful argument on the behalf on community morality and a bottom up driven system of freedom. Has the American social condition become so coarse that this important pillar of American democracy been ineluctably damaged? W. Wesley McDonald: Certainly recent social trends have done much to undermine traditional community, however, Kirk would not allow himself the luxury being throughly pessmimistic about the future. There is always hope--nothing is inevitable. Question from David Sparkman, Not Currently Teaching or Studying: I think it was Richard Hofstader who criticized The Conservative Mind by saying it was excellent in the early going, but as Kirk got closer to the present he relied exclusively on the writings of intellectuals who played no direct role in politics, such as T.S. Eliot, while ignoring the views of actual conservative policymakers. How did Kirk and his followers deal with that criticism, if they did? W. Wesley McDonald: I have already answered this question in some of my previous reponses. Kirk believed that questions of moral character and culture are far more important than implementing governmental programs which often do not have a lasting effect. Poets, not elected officials, are the real legislators because they shape our imagination. A fundamental principle of conservatism is that the character of a people cannot be shaped by positive legislation alone. Question from James E. Person Jr., Gale Group: Professor McDonald, would you mind telling us what you believe is the most valuable admonition Kirk might pass along to his modern readers, whether of the left, right, or center? W. Wesley McDonald: I hardly know how to answer this question in that Kirk offered many valuable admonitions in his long career. I suppose he would remind us that no political program or body of thought can cure all the problems to which the flesh is heir. Order in the soul precedes order in the commonwealth. If we desire real improvement in the world we must strive to overcome what is arbitrary and selfish in our own souls. Almost all the problems of world originate with man's fallen nature. Humility, therefore, is the beginning of wisdom. Question from The Russell Kirk Center: Dr. McDonald says that Russell Kirk so disliked technology that he did not consider how to incorporate it imaginatively into a living tradition. However, his legacy is being carried today on by modern inventions such as this chat room, the Kirk Center website and C-SPAN television programs. Does Dr. McDonald believe that it is the responsibility of Kirk's disciples to do this since they are the rising generation who are better suited to this task? W. Wesley McDonald: Yes, and I am enjoying the irony of using the very technology that Kirk so disliked to spread his ideas and introduce people to his work. Soon, his books will be on DVDs. How he would have hated that. I recall when I once tried to show him how to use a computer, he just threw up his hands in frustration and said "I am not interested in this." However, thanks to the computer and the internet, his ideas are now reaching legions of people that would have had no contact with him. So, my answer to the question is "Yes." Question from Rich Byrne, Chronicle of Higher Ed: What effect did the enforced deadlines of a weekly newspaper column have on Kirk's writing and thought? W. Wesley McDonald: In my opinion, his least interesting and enduring writing is found in his newspaper columns. They were not especially popular. Kirk, by temperament, was not much given to writing about topical news events which is the usual stuff of a newpaper column. Instead, he preferred writing lenghthy scholarly essays on literary and cultural issues. He would write all the columns for a week (about 3) in one sitting. He was just hack work to him to earn money. He didn't take any special joy in writing those columns, although they certainly helped increase his notoriety. Sometimes he would write foolish things in them such as, for example, how his family didn't really have a need for a modern freezer. His wife had a decidedly different opinion, of course, and they did own a freezer. Question from Frank Forman, U.S. Dept. of Education: Now that bio-engineering, nanotechnology, designer children, artificial intelligence, and so on are continuing to come whether Russell Kirk would have approved or not, what are the "permanent things" that will remain after these changes? W. Wesley McDonald: Of course, the "permanent things" never change even if the great bulk of mankind foolishly ignores them. Despite the variations of time, place, and circumstance, "permanent things" have universal validity. These "permanent things," defined by Kirk as immutable and universal norms, "are derived from the experience of the species, the ancient usages of humanity, and from the perceptions of genius, of those rare men who have seen profoundly into the human condition and whose wisdom soon is accepted by the mass of men, down the generations." They amount to the sum total of man's efforts in thought and action through the ages to achieve standards of moral perfection. Of course, if generation is unable to connect with generation, or even humans to other humans, because of these technological advances that Mr. Foman cites, then humanity's ability to understand and appreciate the "permanent things" will be dangerously eviscerated. Question from Scott McLemee: You mentioned at one point that you worked with Kirk as he was preparing his book on T.S. Eliot. It seems as if the relationship between Kirk and Eliot might be one that scholars would do well to explore. I wonder if you have any thoughts on that? And if there were any particularly scholarly book on Kirk you could urge someone to write, what would the subject be? W. Wesley McDonald: Interesting question. Kirk and Eliot were close friends during the last years of Eliot's life. I have seen the volumious correspondence between the two which Kirk used for his book. However, none of those letters would be available to scholars now. I don't even think that his widow would give even me access. I think that someone should follow up on Person's biography of Kirk and write about his fiction. I deal very little with Kirk as a writer of fiction in my book and it is in his fiction that he makes his most profound observations on the human condition. Question from Gerald Russello: Dr. McDonald: I think your book fills a critical need in the discourse, to identify Kirk as a significant thinker and not just as an intellectual adjunct to "movement" conservatism. How would you distinguish Kirk's achivement or legacy from other major conservative writers of the 1950s and 1960s? I am thinking in particular of Willmoore Kendall, Frank Meyer, or James Burnham, but also you may wish to comment on Kirk's distinction from Leo Strauss and Eric Voegelin. Thank you. W. Wesley McDonald: I draw distinctions between Kirk and Kendall, Meyer and Strauss in my book. To answer this question completely would require almost another book. Let me briefly say that Kendall and Kirk were not particularly friendly. Kendall accused Kirk of having a defective understanding of Reason in his thought. Also, Kirk was not enamored of Kendall's populist orientation. Meyer and Kirk strongly disliked each other. Meyer thought that Kirk was an authoritarian and Kirk denounced Meyer's libertarianism which he thought led inevitably to anarchy. Kirk respected Burnham, but they had vastly different interests and different approaches to the study of politics. Kirk strongly admired Voegelin and tried to incorporate in the 1980s much of his understanding of history into his own thought. Scott McLemee (Moderator): In some ways, that last question is the one with the most interesting implications for anyone still prone to thinking of conservatives as, in Mills's phrase, "the stupid party." The existence of not one significant conservative thinker on the American scene but several, with significant differences among them, is something that bears emphasizing. Question from David Whalen, Hillsdale College: The intellectual legacy Kirk describes and his own body of thought are at best a ghostly presence in contemporary academic discourse. He is largely ignored. I wonder, to what extent does this reflect his own idea of the workings of the moral imagination? To put it another way, is Kirk's thought largely incomprehensible in an academic world accustomed to utterly rarefied abstraction and pointed politicizing? W. Wesley McDonald: Kirk's books and articles today receive scant attention outside conservative circles. Moreover, and even more startling, within the conservative movement, he is often a “neglected mind.” His ideas puzzle and trouble conservative activists who do not know exactly what to make of him. Kirk could be often as harsh in his criticism of business as he was of government or big labor. He deplored American military adventures and the prospect of environmental destruction as vigorously as any liberal activist. Although he relentlessly attacked liberal shibboleths, he exhibited no interest in developing alternative conservative policies. Instead, his writings are mostly about long-dead and frequently forgotten political thinkers and literary figures who seem irrelevant to contemporary concerns. Kirk’s anti-modernist traditionalism seems out of place to conservative activists seeking power and position in Washington, D.C. A characteristic of Kirk’s brand of conservative thought then is its non-political inspiration. Of primary concern for him instead was the discovery of and apprehension of the “permanent things,” those eternal moral norms that give meaning to and enrich the quality of life. A conservatism identified with a mere laundry list of public policy issues, he believed, would not long endure. The battle for the future direction of America cannot be won by “conservative” political victories either in Congress or at the ballot box when the things of the heart and mind are neglected. Kirk also had no faith in the capacity of politics to cure the moral and spiritual ills of society. One reason that Kirk was sometimes ignored is because of the difficulty that conservatives and liberals alike have in grasping the decisive importance he assigned to culture. Because he never offered specific programs on health care, tax-cuts, foreign policy, market deregulation, crime reduction, his work appears irrelevant. For Kirk, culture precedes politics, and unless a healthy, vibrant civilized culture exists, no amount of “conservative” political victories will have long term significance.
Therefore, Kirk is rarely mentioned by Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly or the like because he didn't speak to issues that interest them. Also, when was the last time a traditionalist conservative was invited as a guest on Fox News? Kirk is largely incomprehensible to academics because he did not always express opinions that they would typically identify as "conservative." Question from Scott McLemee: You paint a rather dark picture of how he's understood, or misunderstood, today, but Kirk certainly does still have devoted readers, which is something most authors can only dream of having in their lifetimes, let alone ten years after death. What do you think Kirk's legacy will be? W. Wesley McDonald: Kirk is assured a place of prominence as one of the foremost thinkers who anchored conservatism in moral norms and culture. Unlike many others on the Right, Kirk recognized that the key to the recovery of order lies in the discovery or rediscovery of those permanent norms that give meaning to and enrich the quality of life and community. The central principles and insights of his work have a perennial significance because they address the eternal dilemmas of the human condition. Consequently, his essays and books will continue to be studied by generations of thinkers. Aside from his published work, Kirk’s legacy lives on through his disciples. From the early 1950s, a continuous stream of young persons found their way to Piety Hill to work with Kirk as literary interns. Most, like me, were apprenticed to him from several months to several years assisting with his research, correspondence and other library chores. Some who admired his work simply arrived unannounced at his door and were nearly always welcomed. During his tenure as the Marguerite Eyer Wilbur Foundation’s President (1979-1994), Kirk through its Fellowship Program mentored another legion of young people. The program enabled graduate students to receive university credit while working on research projects under Kirk’s direction. The network of Kirk scholars and students solidified and expanded in the 1970s and 1980s through seminars held in his old library under the auspices of The Intercollegiate Studies Institute (ISI). Kirk, the focus of these gatherings, would engage the participants in discussions about a variety of literary, historical and political topics. Likewise, many of the minds first cultivated by Kirk at Piety Hill would become the bearers and purveyors of “the permanent things” long after he had passed from this vale. “By the Nineties, there were dispersed throughout the United States a great many people in their middle years or their careers who had read” his works “and had been moved thereby,” he wrote near the end of his days, “Of the disciples who at one time or another had beaten a pathway to Piety Hill, some had become lawyers, and some teachers, some journalists, some professors; some were in the book trade, others had been ordained, yet others obtained posts in government. They might leaven the lump of American society.” After his death, his widow, Annette Kirk and their son-in-law, Jeffrey Nelson, founded The Russell Kirk Center for Cultural Renewal (http://www.kirkcenter.org), to preserve and perpetuate the legacy of Kirk. Its headquarters is located at the Kirk residence and a branch office was established in 2003 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Students continue to travel to the remote village of Mecosta to study and learn as they did during Kirk’s lifetime. Although the books from Kirk’s original library were removed to nearby Hillsdale College, many would later be replaced. His vast correspondence and other papers are now housed in the Kirk Library where they will someday, after they have been catalogued, become available to researchers. Scholars and students still do research in the library. The Center hosts seminars, colloquia and the Residential Fellows Programs for college students, scholars or anyone with a serious interest in Kirk’s work. Also, the Center manages and edits The University Bookman, a quarterly review of books founded by Kirk in 1960, and now edited by Jeffrey Nelson.
There is evidence of Kirk’s legacy elsewhere as well. ISI continues to publish the quarterly journal, Modern Age, founded by Kirk in 1957. The Heritage Foundation, a Washington based think-tank with ties to the Republican Party, maintains a “Hall of Fame” web site in his honor where biographical information, transcripts of the major Heritage Foundation lectures he delivered between 1989 and 1993, and his “six canons of conservative thought” are posted.
Kirk’s achievement will not be measured solely by his influence on transient policy issues. Rather, he will be remembered because he championed those enduring norms of social interaction without which civilized existence is rendered impossible. Without the guidance of these “permanent things,” order in the soul and commonwealth quickly evaporates. He reminds us that if conservatism is to survive in the twenty-first century as more than just a label, then conservatives must clearly rethink what it is they are trying to conserve. They cannot forget, without losing their reason for being, that sound political reform depends upon a healthy cultural environment. Scott McLemee (Moderator): We've had an interesting discussion today. Thanks to everyone who wrote in with questions and comments. And thanks especially to Wes McDonald for discussing the work of Russell Kirk this afternoon. In talking to Mr. McDonald and reading his scholarship, one gets the sense of someone happy for any chance to express his gratitude to the thinker who left the strongest impression on him. Even so, we want to thank Mr. McDonald for taking the time, during what is undoubtedly the busiest part of the semester. Copyright © 2008 by The Chronicle of Higher Education |