The Chronicle: Colloquy Live Transcript

Crunch Time at Community Colleges

Thursday, April 29, at 2 p.m., U.S. Eastern time

With declining state support, increasing student demand, and heavy turnover among their leaders, community colleges are truly feeling a pinch. Can they continue to maintain their multiple missions, including providing college access to all who seek it?

Community colleges are facing unprecedented challenges. The confluence of increased student demand and decreased state support has squeezed out some of the neediest students -- the very ones for whom community colleges were established. Is the first-come-first-served model the best approach? Or should community colleges find new ways to preserve access for underprepared students? Can they continue to serve so many remedial students while droves of well-prepared high-school graduates continue to flock to two-year colleges? Will they be able to answer President Bush's call for more job-training programs? And as an earlier generation retires, will a new crop of leaders arrive with different priorities?

» Community Colleges at a Crossroads (4/30/2004)

Mark David Milliron is president and chief executive officer of the League for Innovation in the Community College, an international consortium. Before coming to the league, Mr. Milliron, a former community-college student, was an official at the Oracle Corporation and at Mayland Community College, in North Carolina. He has also served as the league's vice president and chief operating officer.

A transcript of the chat follows.

Question from Jamilah Evelyn:
Good afternoon. Thanks to everyone who's logged in. From all the good questions sent in advance, it looks like this will be an interesting conversation that really strikes at the heart of some big issues that community colleges are facing. Thanks, Dr. Milliron for joining us.

Mark David Milliron:
Jamilah, thank you for the invitation to join with the Chronicle community in a dialogue about community colleges. I’m glad to be here!

Jamilah Evelyn (Moderator):
Great, let's get started!

Question from Henry Ingle, 4 year institution:
Are there some workable strategies that can better facilitate cooperation across community colleges, 4 year institutions and other levels of higher education so that we can better accommodate the changing and growing student demography that all of us need to "pitch in" and better educate?

Mark David Milliron:
Henry, this is a great question. The League for Innovation in the Community College is engaged in a national project that hits on these issues. It’s called the College and Career Transitions Initiative (CCTI). CCTI has identified 15 model partnership sites across the US, sites that showcase collaborations between K-12, community colleges, businesses, and the university sector to better facilitate student transitions in career pathways. We’re looking at career fields like information technology, homeland security, teacher education, science and engineering, and health sciences. Our goal is to showcase the range of collaborations (e.g., dual enrollment, early intervention programs, middle colleges, internships, transfer agreements, etc) and document strategies to improve academic performance and smooth transitions. For more information, please visit http://www.league.org/ccti. We have a virtual reader that connects to all literature related to these kinds of efforts and a host of other resources for modeling.

Henry, we feel that this is such an important area to explore. The traditional pipeline metaphor of education is becoming less and less relevant. The notion of the “traditional student” is harder to define. More and more students are in what we call “learning swirl”—swirling in and out of multiple learning experiences throughout their life. They may come through a primary cycle of education, but then they continually return to upgrade, retool, refresh in formal credit and in noncredit formats. Indeed, in many community colleges fully ¼ of the students in the allied health or IT programs already has a bachelors degree or higher! This lifelong learning is leading to a host of other credentialing options as well. Witness the rise of certification programs nationally and internationally.

With these trends in mind, finding “workable strategies” for collaboration will become a must!

Question from Jim Vanides, Hewlett-Packard Philanthropy & Education:
When it comes to addressing the needs of students who need some assistance getting "up to speed" to be successful in college, what intervention strategies/programs show some promise? (e.g., the MESA program in California)

Mark David Milliron:
Jim, much has been done in community colleges to explore and implement strategies for developmental or remedial education. Bob McCabe, a Senior League Fellow and former President of Miami-Dade College, has done some of the most powerful work in this area. His book, “No One to Waste” (http://www.aacc.nche.edu/Template.cfm?Section=Bookstore&template=
/Ecommerce/ProductDisplay.cfm&ProductID=319) provides a strong argument to policy makers about the need to support these efforts. In short, he argues it is ‘penny wise and dollar dumb’ to cut funding for these students. If you want to increase criminal justice and welfare investments in your community, just cut funding to GED and developmental education. He follow up book “Yes We Can” (http://leaguestore.sureshopping.com/display.asp?sku=51&rP=searching,rqDesc@
%22yes%2Bwe%2Bcan%22,rqOrder@1) provides model programs from across the US, programs that show we can be successful with developmental education students.

Drawing on this work and a host of others (including the Roueche’s work in “Between a Rock and a Hard Place), colleges have used a number of strategies: (1) leverage early intervention programs with high schools to identify students earlier and provide training before they hit our open doors, (2) peer tutoring, (3) open/entry open/exit flexible programs, (4) interactive technology, (5) directed student support services like early alert systems, (6) learning communities, and (7) policy changes that support academic progress. For example, Sinclair Community College recent undertook a pretty aggressive program to eliminate late registration in an effort to help support in class faculty. What the faculty had been saying for years was “last in, first out.” So Sinclair did something about it. You can read more about it here: http://www.league.org/publication/abstracts/learning/lelabs0312.html

Question from Joanne, urban multicampus community college:
My question is about students who have English as a second language and need to strengthen their English skills and students coming from high school with low language and writing skills who are entering community colleges. As an instructor in a history course, over time I have had to lessen the requirements for writing of history assignments because the required level of writing, analytical skills, and research capabilities to enter my class at my college is low. What can be done to raise the reading and writing level nationwide for community colleges to at least an 8th grade level or higher so that course integrity is maintained and there is some assurance for all students that credits can transfer?

Mark David Milliron:
Joanne, Again, a great question. A major underpinning of our College and Career Transitions Initiative (CCTI) is the philosophy that we have to raise the academic rigor in high schools and community colleges. These habits of life and learning are the cornerstone of lifelong learning. If we really want our students to be able to learn for a lifetime, to pivot from career to career, they need these core learning skills. We’ve run a project call the 21st Century Learning Outcomes Project that showcases some model programs from institutions that have taken on this challenge. You can learn more about it here: http://www.league.org/league/projects/pew/index.htm . Many of the project participants had aggressive ESL programs, showing what we all know---that academic excellence does not have to be sacrificed when serving diverse populations.

Also, in the book Practical Magic: On the Front Lines of Teaching Excellence, we studied teaching excellence award winners nationwide. One of the most resounding and consistent findings was that these faculty members were strong proponents of not lowering standards. Indeed, they held their students and themselves to the highest of expectations. There is a shorter article that summarizes this study available through the NISOD website: http://www.nisod.org/downloads/celebrations.pdf

Question from P.D. Lesko, the Adjunct Advocate magazine:
Over the past 40 years, the number of community colleges has doubled (along with the expectation that all of them will benefit from tax dollars). Meanwhile, graduation rates have fallen, and students find themselves thousands of dollars in debt at the end of their college careers (whether they graduate or not). Has the time come for American community colleges to focus on success versus access?

Mark David Milliron:
Interesting question, and an important dialogue. While it’s true that access has been a driving value of community colleges; success has been a strong partner value as well. Indeed, the trite bromide “the right to fail” has really fallen by the wayside.

Most community college educators seem to be working to find the right balance between access and success, a synergy if you will. Indeed, the major foundations funding community college innovation are specifically targeting these twin goals (e.g., see the Lumina Foundation -- http://www.luminafoundation.org/). From the Community College Study of Student Engagement (http://www.ccsse.org) to the Learning College Project (www.league.org/learningcollege), access and success are twin goals, a yin and yang of sorts.

As a society, the option of limiting education is not there. In the world of the “third wave,” or the information age, slipping back into a comfortable aristocratic or Darwinian exclusivity in education isn’t an option (and I don’t think you’re advocating that at all). However, sloppy “let them all come” program can’t be tolerated either. It’s about connecting to as many learners as possible with the most effective learning possible. We can’t relent on either value.

Particularly in our hyper connected age, I couldn’t feel more strongly about this. Thomas Jefferson said it best, “if a nation expects to live ignorant and free, it wants what never was and what never will be.” That has never been more true that today. We need to touch as many people with education as we can.

Question from Tonya Amankwatia, Lehigh University:
Hi Mark, Given the access and multiple missions concerns, might there be a re-emergence in the number of private community colleges? Why or why not?

Mark David Milliron:
Tonya, interesting question. Back in the 60’s, John Roueche wrote an article called, “All That Glitters is Not Gold” about the move of private two-year colleges into universities. Many of these moves were problematic to say the least. There may be an interesting back to the future in reverse on this one; but, I don’t think so. It seems to me that there has been a marked rise in the Career College Association (for-profit sector) at this level, and they are flexing their muscle on the Hill to be certain. On the other hand, a good number of for-profits see the community college market as high-maintenance and prefer to partner with us as feeder institutions (using us as bridges to more lucrative markets like MBAs). What is interesting is there appears to be more segmentation happening—sectors starting to stick more to their knitting. The only real expansion in our space seems to be in the for-profit sector.

Question from Kevin Drumm, Springfield Technical Community College:
With our more recent emphasis on workforce development coupled with growing public funding in this area, while funding is shrinking in support of community colleges' higher education missions, do we run the risk of becoming workforce training institutes more than institutions of higher education?

Mark David Milliron:
Kevin, this is a good concern. In fact, as part of a workshop we do on Learning Dialogues, we challenge leaders to have thoughtful dialogues on campus about “profit” vs. “purpose”. In our New Directions Monograph on fundraising, Gerardo de los Santos and I wrote an article called “The Rise of Fundraising in the Community College.” In this article, we echoed the caution of leaders nationwide that as we enter into more entrepreneurial efforts and private fundraising, we have to make sure not to “sell out,” continue to champion the infusion and importance of liberal arts education. And this is no different than what public and private universities have struggled with for years as they wrestle with the ethical implications of defense research contracts, alumni gifts, and other business collaborations.

Question from Chuck Shreve, Northwestern Michigan College:
One way to generate revenue for Community Colleges is through enrollment management and tuition revenue. Financial Aid will pay for remedial classes if credit is attached to it. Why wasn't this mentioned as a possible approach to continue to provide a quality education for all students?

Mark David Milliron:
Chuck, this is a good observation. The challenge is that the rules on this are so varied from state to state that the ability to offer developmental education as “credit” is limited in many places. Of course, this puts students in a real bind, and often forces colleges to “concurrently” enroll unprepared students in credit courses for which they are not ready. I have a feeling this will be a point of discussion during the upcoming reauthorization of HEA talks.

Question from Vi Rajagopalan, Cuyahoga Community College:
My question pertains to turnover among leaders. Colleges should establish a mentoring system that would help budding leaders get prepared emotionally along with being technically prepared for the job.Instead most of the time colleges seek canditates from outside who find themselves caught up in unwanted college culture etc. and I am guessing that most of the turnovers are from stress related issues? I am sure some of the leaders leave because opportunities are better elsewhere.

Mark David Milliron:
Leadership turnover in the community college sector is stunning. Our research echoes the work of other researcher noting that we are seeing the greatest transition of senior leadership in more than three decades. This is a pretty complex issue, one we wrestle with in our Executive Leadership Institute (www.league.org/ELI) --the preparation of the next generation of VPs and Presidents—particularly at a time when many extremely talented people will not even consider leadership. They think, why should I subject myself to pressure and politics that surround presidencies? We need to have some good discussions on our campuses about whether or not we are fostering and environment in which a talented person would want to join with us to lead. Thoughtful college faculty and staff members are asking hard questions about their civility and organizational culture and working to foster the kind of environment where the best people are drawn in to and stay in leadership positions.

Jamilah Evelyn (Moderator):
We're about half-way done, so if you have a question and you haven't sent it in yet, please do so now.

Question from Faye Fullerton, Lincoln Land CC:
Some governmental officials say that the need for developmental education (such a major mission at CC's) will decline as a result of No Child Left Behind initiatives and that the funding for such "pre-collegiate" coursework should perhaps be reduced in the future. How do you respond to that?

Mark David Milliron:
Faye, I think most community college educators would be thrilled to see this outcome become a reality. However, even with the best of efforts, the most positive of results are not likely to be seen for years. And that is only with deep, sustained, and systemic efforts across multiple federal and state administrations. This doesn’t mean that we don’t take on these challenges and lead change. It just means we need to be realistic about the fact that the developmental education mission is not going away anytime soon.

Question from Jim Jacobs, Community College Research Center:
The decline in community college support is also connected to the general decline in state support for higher education. How many states may attempt to implement a policy which--in order to save state funds--diverts students who would normally go to four year schools to community colleges. This would "crowd out" some of the traditional community college students. Is that a trend that is happening now, and what is the impact of this trend?

Mark David Milliron:
Jim, good to hear from you. I think you’re exactly right. It’s already happening in California and in other states. There is a good report on the challenges of these strategies and possible unintented consequences available from the Institute for Higher Education Leadership at CSU (www.csus.edu/ihe).

Question from Jim Vanides, HP:
Are there any new funding/cost models under consideration for community colleges? I find it interesting (and dismaying) that we have so many students knocking at the door and being turned away because of lack of funding. For a business, customers knocking at the door is wonderful... unless you lose money on each customer.

Mark David Milliron:
Jim, I couldn’t agree more. The return on investment for community college education is stunning. When a community really does the math, they tend to step up to support CCs in bond elections and in other ways. However, because we are only just becoming a stronger political force, we tend to get crowded out by the passion of K-12 and the power of the universities. From state to state, we are seeing about every funding mix imaginable. The only constant is that state support is trending down (except most notably Florida, which has seen some nice stabilizing lately). It’s going to force us to ask the hard questions about our capacity, and force our communities to face realities about how much fat they cut before it gets into muscle!

Question from Michael Greisman, UMBC grad:
Which missions should community colleges cut first? (I assume that some must be cut.) The experiences of my friends suggest that the most important missions are (a) teaching high-school level skills (remedial education) and (b) providing two-year degrees in preparation for the work place or further education. Are there other missions to be cut, or will we have to reduce these programs?

Mark David Milliron:
Michael, it’s an interesting assumption that missions must be cut. The format of the comprehensive community college (developmental ed, certificates, diplomas, degrees in liberal arts and technical/vocational programs) has been pretty stable for the last 25 years. The newer “missions” were really added to create new revenue and provide new avenues for service (e.g., workforce training). Cutting the latter might mean even fewer resources to do the former. Cutting the former might so devalue our efforts that we lose public support and have to turn into for-profit schools. In my opinion, the challenge will be to thoughtfully leverage the mix of all our programming, analyze what we do well, what we can broker out, and think more and more about how we become not just a learning provider, but a learning nexus. It only strengthens our role in the long run. We’ve piloted some partnerships along these lines in our Sloan Foundation SAIL program (www.league.org/sail).

Question from Valerie Dobson, McDpwell Technical Community College, Marion, NC:
With enrollments expected to be down at 4 year universities--I am in a town that has experienced a recent closing of a furniture plant--our enrollment is expected to rise this fall. Many of our new students need remedial courses before they begin their program of study, and I am faced with placing them in courses that they don't need to be in, so they can complete their study within two years as stipulated by WIA, TAA, TRA programs. How can we as educators solve this problem of explaining to these new adult learners that they need to take these remedial courses to succeed in regular college level courses?

Mark David Milliron:
Valerie, The situation you describe is the real challenge with “time to degree” requirements—not to mention the degree bias in programs like Perkins, which force students to lie. For example, a student really wants to be trained in CAD/CAM, but doesn’t need the degree associated with it. They will contribute to the local economy and the improvement of their lives with the training alone; however, to receive WIA or Perkins, they need to be in a degree/diploma program. So they are counseled to put this down on their application. All this does is skew the data (i.e., makes our grad rates look terrible) and lead to strange accountability requirements in the long run. There are a series of these policy challenges that the DOE and DOL are wrestling with today. From what I can see so far, they seem willing to really tackle these as the HEA comes up.

Question from Paul Michaud, Raritan Valley Community College:
Legislatures and other governing bodies have challenged colleges to prove their efficacy. Yet traditional yardsticks such as graduation rates can be problematic for community colleges, as Cliff Adelman has described. What are your thoughts on how community colleges can demonstrate accountability?

Mark David Milliron:
Paul, Great question. The Maricopa Community College passed huge bond initiative in 1994 after doing an economic impact study that proved substantial return on investment. I’m sure the study wasn’t the only reason, but it certainly helped with the anti-tax crowd. Currently there are groups that do this for colleges to showcase their broader impact. A good example is CC Benefits (www.ccbenefits.com).

Question from Gerald Stanglin, Kilgore College--a community college with about 5,000 students (headcount):
How do selective programs within a community college on a competitive admission basis such as honors programs or accelerated programs for working adults impact the open access mission of community colleges?

Mark David Milliron:
Gerald, good question. Open access to opportunity at a local community college doesn’t mean equal access to selective programs. This has been a hard reality for some colleges to come to grips with in the last few decades. But make no mistake about it, nursing programs, IT programs, and honors programs are proliferating and competition is fierce. Miami-Dade’s honors program has been highlighted in the NY Times; and their graduates are recruited by the top colleges in the country. What college leaders relate to me is that the ethical thing to do is to ensure that all of those who come in have equal opportunity to develop the skills sets necessary to compete for these slots. But this will become a harder challenge as more and more returning students with advanced degrees compete with our first-time high school leavers for our selective slots.

Question from J HK, Shoreline Community College:
One of my colleagues recently brought up a great point at a meeting of CC history professors. Here in WA, there is no History requirement, BTW, which puts us further out on a limb. The best private liberal arts colleges and Ivies all base their education around a traditional model that requires work in both the arts and sciences, generally around a somewhat "classic core." By focusing so much on vocational programs and generic requirements, how can we be fulfilling our mission to transfer students, that is, how can we be giving them a leg up when we're starting from an entirely different premise? If the core is treated merely as "transfer requirements" by both college and government administrations, then aren't we ignoring a large part of our mission?

Mark David Milliron:
Again, let me reiterate, I am in full support of stronger liberal arts programming in our colleges. Academic rigor is a must to outfit our students for the road ahead. However, we must remember that given the realities of lifelong learning swirl, we are likely to have multiple opportunities to touch these students. So we can’t cram everything in to every program or service. Perhaps this time through our institution, they only want or need a certification. When they return for a degree we can do more. We need to be thinking more about a lifelong learner relationship to our folks using all the tools at our disposal (http://www.league.org/publication/abstracts/learning/lelabs0101.htm)

Jamilah Evelyn (Moderator):
Thanks to everyone for sending in tons of good questions. Sorry that we didn't have time to get to them all but I have a feeling that this is the kind of discussion that could go on for days. Thanks especially to Dr. Milliron for joining us and tackling these very difficult questions.

Mark David Milliron:
Thanks so much Jamilah for this opportunity to connect with the Chronicle community. As you can tell from the questions, community college educators are passionate about why we serve and who we serve. We are made even more so by the courage of those who come through our open doors. We recently released an open letter to those students called “The Courage to Learn” that may be of interest to some of the audience (http://www.league.org/publication/abstracts/learning/lelabs0404.html)